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It was inevitable on my return that this thread would come up about everyone's favourite map decoration.

Obviously considering their lack of use (outside of canoes) during the New World Tournament to the surprise of nobody, indicates something should be done. Yes, it's not a big priority but I think certain civs could certainly use the indirect help of having alternative options in some cases outside of mercs, consulate units and one off shipments.

However, some minor natives are so woefully bad... it hurts. I'm going to list all of them into a minor tier list and give notes just to get the ball rolling. There are problems which affect all natives like the need for map control and the need to hold map control for upgrades, cards and such to be even remotely worth it. I'm not asking for sweeping changes either, I'm expecting a long road for them to be remotely considered. I've got my own ideas here for 'general' improvements which can and should be discussed here but I want to get other people's feelings and thoughts on natives overall and the 'use' of each since this is ultimately my subjective opinion.

A
Need very little help outside of some general buffs.
Cree
Inca

B
Pretty good need minor tuning either to the unit or techs
Cheyenne
Jesuit
Apache
Zen

C
Need a fair amount of help.
Bhakti
Cherokee
Klamath
Shaolin

D
Need quite a bit of improvement
Navajo
Sufi
Tupi

E
Need a LOT of help. Maps with this native type alone typically make me sad.
Carib
Comanche
Huron
Mapuche
Maya
Nootka
Seminole
Udasi
Zapotec

I've listed recent notes on each of these about why I think as such and needless to say, not everyone is going to agree but the core theme of this list and core point here is the amount of heavy infantry natives in the E list. There are some exceptions and some like the Mapuche aren't quite as bad as most of the others on this list and obviously the Inca are on the top of the list despite being heavy infantry. Others are a bit lower than some might think for example the Apache despite basically having Dragoons. That's actually the reason. Many civs can just train their own and ignore the Apache, their investments and all the pitfalls all minor natives have but they still might get occasional use from a civ that needs them.

I should also note that some of them do have good techs and some of them are still way down despite this. The problem is that a lot of the time a 10% boost to some gather rates isn't going to keep them relevant or be worth the 200 wood cost then the tech cost on top of that.

shaolin is sick mate, you trippin balls. Good thread though, the core thing that makes natives unviable is the position of the nat tps.

Carib and seminole are actually very good in niche circumstances, mostly due to their archer techs. Huron are good for Fishing so realistically i'd put those in the B category.

Shaolin require a fair amount of investment to get to that stage though which is a problem with many of the natives really. Great if you get there but most of the time in the world of build orders and precise investments they'll be neglected. Same for Bhakti. I agree TP positioning is a significant part of the problem and the whole risk factor and unlike normal TPs there is no return of investment, you must invest more to get anything at all.

Carib units are horrendous. 10 range on a ranged infantry? Ew. The tech is also only 10% attack on archer/melee for 500 resources. Ambushing is also ill advised because of the short range and fact its pretty hard to run away from cav as well as the immense investment of both vill attack and the ability to train ambushers.

Seminole have a special place in my heart before people figured out set up time and how to exploit it. They were my fourth most trained unit in vanilla IRC. Unfortunately those times have passed. Sure if you are Japan, Sioux (Bow riders) or Brit that 600 resource tech for 25% attack but otherwise, ignore and really I don't want to see Seminole only get picked in that incredibly niche circumstance for that tech which is extremely expensive and thus probably won't get picked up most of the time even by those three civs. I'd rather the tech be nerfed and the unit improved.

Huron fishing is worth more or less 275 wood and 75 coin for 20% fishing since the unit quite honestly isn't worth using unless the game goes very late. It's questionable at best when resources are precious and is probably the only good thing about them and like Seminole, only using it for the tech isn't ideal.

Peachrocks wrote:Shaolin require a fair amount of investment to get to that stage though which is a problem with many of the natives really. Great if you get there but most of the time in the world of build orders and precise investments they'll be neglected. Same for Bhakti. I agree TP positioning is a significant part of the problem and the whole risk factor and unlike normal TPs there is no return of investment, you must invest more to get anything at all.

Carib units are horrendous. 10 range on a ranged infantry? Ew. The tech is also only 10% attack on archer/melee for 500 resources. Ambushing is also ill advised because of the short range and fact its pretty hard to run away from cav as well as the immense investment of both vill attack and the ability to train ambushers.

Seminole have a special place in my heart before people figured out set up time and how to exploit it. They were my fourth most trained unit in vanilla IRC. Unfortunately those times have passed. Sure if you are Japan, Sioux (Bow riders) or Brit that 600 resource tech for 25% attack but otherwise, ignore and really I don't want to see Seminole only get picked in that incredibly niche circumstance for that tech which is extremely expensive and thus probably won't get picked up most of the time even by those three civs. I'd rather the tech be nerfed and the unit improved.

Huron fishing is worth more or less 275 wood and 75 coin for 20% fishing since the unit quite honestly isn't worth using unless the game goes very late. It's questionable at best when resources are precious and is probably the only good thing about them and like Seminole, only using it for the tech isn't ideal.

Seminoles are actually insane. I remember a certain game where someone (kynesie?) researched the arrows tech as a Brit player and started crushing fights with his longbowmen. The casters were amazed.

Peachrocks wrote:Shaolin require a fair amount of investment to get to that stage though which is a problem with many of the natives really. Great if you get there but most of the time in the world of build orders and precise investments they'll be neglected. Same for Bhakti. I agree TP positioning is a significant part of the problem and the whole risk factor and unlike normal TPs there is no return of investment, you must invest more to get anything at all.

Carib units are horrendous. 10 range on a ranged infantry? Ew. The tech is also only 10% attack on archer/melee for 500 resources. Ambushing is also ill advised because of the short range and fact its pretty hard to run away from cav as well as the immense investment of both vill attack and the ability to train ambushers.

Seminole have a special place in my heart before people figured out set up time and how to exploit it. They were my fourth most trained unit in vanilla IRC. Unfortunately those times have passed. Sure if you are Japan, Sioux (Bow riders) or Brit that 600 resource tech for 25% attack but otherwise, ignore and really I don't want to see Seminole only get picked in that incredibly niche circumstance for that tech which is extremely expensive and thus probably won't get picked up most of the time even by those three civs. I'd rather the tech be nerfed and the unit improved.

Huron fishing is worth more or less 275 wood and 75 coin for 20% fishing since the unit quite honestly isn't worth using unless the game goes very late. It's questionable at best when resources are precious and is probably the only good thing about them and like Seminole, only using it for the tech isn't ideal.

Fishing ups are insane because they stack so well, also you have to remember EP maps have fewer whales, so the more ups you can get the better seeing as you're limited to 16 fishing boats on coin.

A lot of these nats (at least the techs) are more useful than you make them out to be I think but yeah some could certainly use some buffs. Adjusting techs would be the easiest way to make the TP usable at some point in the game (even if it's only lategame). Making the units usable depends a lot on the location of the TP and the unit stats / price which is harder to balance.

I have a big issue with making natives viable : it removes the civ uniqueness. The same is true with mercs actually.

If native units were as good as normal units, then you would go for skirms as brit as you don't have a great anti musk. Likewise, you'd go for goons as Germany to remove your cav weakness, cav as India/Aztec and so on.
Most civs have unique unit compositions, and making the natives stronger would break that.

Buffing the native techs however would make more sense imo. It would be interesting to get eco theory or +10% attack on your units in middle game.

PS : Huron is probably the most viable native atm thanks to the +20% for fishing boats. Apache is also great thanks to the gold gather rate boost.
Nootka are decent, not sure why you would buff them.

Cheyenne are basically S tier if you ask me. Allows most civs to instantly spawn cavalry, 15 bison for cheap and a decent unit to boot.

Apache are A if you ask me, since their unit is basically a Dragoon that can raid vils effectively once the tech is researched.

Bhakti should be B rated imo as the Tiger Claw is pretty good and the berry tech is great for delaying Farms.

Cherokee brings a lot of value for civs without skirms Age2 with how bulky and reliable the Rifleman is, plus the value of spawning 4 vils and the wood you can save, which is especialy valuable if playing Sioux, Britain or Russia, that need all the wood they can get. B rating seems fairer.

B rating for Shaolin as the Rattan is really reliable against skirms

I'd say Navajo are C rated in case you wanna use Livestock(say, a map with lots of them), also the +20% to all gold gathering is pretty reliable.

Tupi needs to be B rated as the archer is a walking Machine Gun with 1.5 ROF and quite good damage. A welcome addition to any army.

Comanche should be C rated as the cavalry upgrades are pretty decent. The unit itself tho is rather poor, even if it's an Age2 Dragoon :/

C rating for Huron as the Mantlet is a really reliable, albeit expensive counter to skirms, alongside a solid fishing tech and late game you can vomit out so many of these that skirm armies will be effectively crippled.

Aren't Nootka Clubmen very reliable due to their bulkiness and convenient cost? Techs aren't that amazing but C rating seems fairer imo

Seminole are really good for civs that rely on archers, like Britain

Udasi +50% HP has some funny interactions with Native Warchiefs, leading to possibly insane meatshields, still the Chakram is too niche to consider.

Mitoe wrote:A lot of these nats (at least the techs) are more useful than you make them out to be I think but yeah some could certainly use some buffs. Adjusting techs would be the easiest way to make the TP usable at some point in the game (even if it's only lategame). Making the units usable depends a lot on the location of the TP and the unit stats / price which is harder to balance.

To make them viable early game realistically we'd have to remove the tp icon next to score, as atm you don't have to scout it and can adapt very easily.

Most of the techs are great, or at least always worth it eventually late-game anyway. On RE Deccan for example you can get double eco theory with the two Nat posts.

Kawapasaka wrote:Most of the techs are great, or at least always worth it eventually late-game anyway. On RE Deccan for example you can get double eco theory with the two Nat posts.

To be fair, most natives don't need a nerf. Top players don't use them because they don't know what they do.
Like I know that cheyenne gives some bisons for 150w/150c, huron gives an insane 20% on fishing and the natives on Baja give 10% on gold but that's it.
I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200. Their strengh is that they don't cost population. You don't want to standardise the civs. Getting the techs before late game should be an option though.

On nilla, Sonora was just stupid because the only viable build was to go for a native rush, we don't want that to happen.

Shaolin for aztec is absolutely better than coyote, no question. They also ignore goons so just a reliable unit all around, quite useful for lots of compositions and the upgrades are all very good.

Seminole buffs both mace and eagle runners so once again aztec can benefit immensely. Also boosts cav archers, bow riders, aenna, i think seminole are underr used, but that upgrade is quite expensive

Cherokee i think are a little underrated, the unit is pretty solid all things considered and 4 vill shipment is nice

Carib have their uses but more longterm or for sioux to get 2x vs vill bow riders, though the carib maps tend to not favour sioux.

Apache are a huge boost to china, though upgrading them in fortress is kind of a pain. Still, not a terrible option.

The tupi unit is insane if you mass them, but the upgrades are pretty trash for cost

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

It would be unfair though. By design, brit is weak against heavy infantry and China doesn't have goons. Don't ruin the civ design because "it adds more variety". Paradoxically, it doesn't as every civ would have the same unit composition.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

It would be unfair though. By design, brit is weak against heavy infantry and China doesn't have goons. Don't ruin the civ design because "it adds more variety". Paradoxically, it doesn't as every civ would have the same unit composition.

By the same token, mercs should do the same thing. Given the build limits I'm not sure how much civ dynamics would change. Just adds some nice supplementary units. Brit-India isn't a completely different MU because of 10 Jaegars, is it? I don't see how 13 Cherokee skirms would be any different.

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Show hidden quotes

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

It would be unfair though. By design, brit is weak against heavy infantry and China doesn't have goons. Don't ruin the civ design because "it adds more variety". Paradoxically, it doesn't as every civ would have the same unit composition.

By the same token, mercs should do the same thing. Given the build limits I'm not sure how much civ dynamics would change. Just adds some nice supplementary units. Brit-India isn't a completely different MU because of 10 Jaegars, is it? I don't see how 13 Cherokee skirms would be any different.

Mercs are an issue too, I agree. 10 jaegers is fine because you can only send it once, and it takes a lot of time to come, but the saloon is a bit dumb.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kawapasaka wrote:

Show hidden quotes

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

It would be unfair though. By design, brit is weak against heavy infantry and China doesn't have goons. Don't ruin the civ design because "it adds more variety". Paradoxically, it doesn't as every civ would have the same unit composition.

By the same token, mercs should do the same thing. Given the build limits I'm not sure how much civ dynamics would change. Just adds some nice supplementary units. Brit-India isn't a completely different MU because of 10 Jaegars, is it? I don't see how 13 Cherokee skirms would be any different.

Mercs are an issue too, I agree. 10 jaegers is fine because you can only send it once, and it takes a lot of time to come, but the saloon is a bit dumb.

Saloon is random, you waste 200 wood if you don't Get good mercs, they also produce insanely slowly.

Riotcoke wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Show hidden quotes

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:

Kawapasaka wrote:

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think that the native units shouldn't really be "viable" until the late game when you're 200/200.

I think it'd be nice to have some more niche circumstances before late-game where they're decent. Just as a useful tool for civs to iron out their compositions in certain situations, like china trying to remass anti-cav or civs with no skirm-type facing a large mass of heavy inf.
The thing is, beyond age 2, a big problem with nats is that the cost of upgrading them is simply not worth the build limit. I think a reduction in upgrade cost would be a good place to start, rather than an increase in build limit.

It would be unfair though. By design, brit is weak against heavy infantry and China doesn't have goons. Don't ruin the civ design because "it adds more variety". Paradoxically, it doesn't as every civ would have the same unit composition.

By the same token, mercs should do the same thing. Given the build limits I'm not sure how much civ dynamics would change. Just adds some nice supplementary units. Brit-India isn't a completely different MU because of 10 Jaegars, is it? I don't see how 13 Cherokee skirms would be any different.

Mercs are an issue too, I agree. 10 jaegers is fine because you can only send it once, and it takes a lot of time to come, but the saloon is a bit dumb.

Saloon is random, you waste 200 wood if you don't Get good mercs, they also produce insanely slowly.

It has some drawbacks, that's for sure. Still, it's game breaking when you get jagers as brit or manchus as China/Germany.

I kind of agree with diarouga, if you can use natives every game it's not fun to train them - or see them trained - anymore. I like them as surprise units, someone suggested to remove the display of the golden icon when you built a Native TP, it could be solution

I think natives should be an option when gold runs out(investing in plants or natives?) rather than 200/200 pop.

HUMMAN wrote:I think natives should be an option when gold runs out(investing in plants or natives?) rather than 200/200 pop.

And it is an option. People usually train bow/pike (and they have to upgrade them too). Most natives are definitely better than bow/pike.

Natives definitely need some tweaking, but in general there are so many non viable options inside the main civilizations themselves that imo we should focus on enabling more variety in the civilizations first, and then eventually looking at natives.

One of the reasons why natives are ignored is because players generally don't know/remember the techs. Also nat rush is perceived as a weak strat (well, often it is) but in fact it's one of best options in some MUs (e.g. fre vs russia on some maps).

Garja wrote:One of the reasons why natives are ignored is because players generally don't know/remember the techs. Also nat rush is perceived as a weak strat (well, often it is) but in fact it's one of best options in some MUs (e.g. fre vs russia on some maps).

Just hold ALT and then you can see the techs.