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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Aug 2019, 08:57

It's not because of the game, it's a culture shift that happened fairly recently. During and before the ASFP days it was not at all common for people to act like sore losers especially in important matches.

What made this culture shift happen is anyone's guess, but I have some thoughts on it. It seems safe to say it started with top players, because they are in the spotlight, and we shouldn't underestimate the impact of the example they set. Around 2015 our top player community wasn't very united. There was much less of a sense of community than among AoE2's top players, as far as I can see. There were some big egos, a lot of rivalries (and not the healthy kind), a lot of mistrust which was often for good reason. BS_OP for example never really found his place in the community. Him and his "cronies" always felt like they were anti-ESOC. Maybe he had his reasons, or maybe it was just his idea of fun, but that sort of thing doesn't help.

In short, and perhaps an unpopular opinion: Our top players have been doing a poor job at setting an example in recent years.
The good news is this has been improving recently. I think the LAN was especially good for nudging us in the right direction.
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New Zealand zoom
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07 Aug 2019, 11:19

Mitoe wrote:Also, for what it's worth, I think the community has improved a lot this year in terms of friendliness.
How precious!
Effective ESOC Patch notes

"♪We can ascend 'till we reach De La Heaven; and in a spin we'll hit the Top Ten♫"
"♪We're special in other ways – ways our mothers appreciate♫"
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France [Armag] diarouga
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07 Aug 2019, 11:27

Goodspeed wrote:It's not because of the game, it's a culture shift that happened fairly recently. During and before the ASFP days it was not at all common for people to act like sore losers especially in important matches.

What made this culture shift happen is anyone's guess, but I have some thoughts on it. It seems safe to say it started with top players, because they are in the spotlight, and we shouldn't underestimate the impact of the example they set. Around 2015 our top player community wasn't very united. There was much less of a sense of community than among AoE2's top players, as far as I can see. There were some big egos, a lot of rivalries (and not the healthy kind), a lot of mistrust which was often with good reason. BS_OP for example never really found his place in the community. Him and his "cronies" always felt like they were anti-ESOC. Maybe they had their reasons, or maybe it was just his idea of fun, but that sort of thing doesn't help.

In short, and perhaps an unpopular opinion: Our top players have been doing a poor job at setting an example in recent years.
The good news is this has been improving recently. I think the LAN was especially good for nudging us in the right direction.

I overall agree with that, the top players didn't set the right example.

However, I'm really surprised you only blame bsop and his "cronies" (what does it even mean? I don't think veni or me have ever flamed people after losing a casted game). To me, the biggest issue regarding that was ryan (although I really like him).
For 99% of the community back then, he was the best player of all time without a doubt, and people tried to copy him : his decks, his playstyle etc... and of course he was probably the biggest rager of all time, setting a poor example.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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07 Aug 2019, 11:31

I didn't only blame BS_OP?
BS_OP for example
I think he is a good example of a player who was there but didn't really feel like part of the community. Overall there were a lot of grudges among top players which will inevitably start to affect the way they respond to losses when they play against each other.
No doubt Ryan had his part in this, too, but I think this culture of flames and general hostility went much further than ragequits. Ragequits seem to me like more of a symptom than a cause.
No Flag spadel
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07 Aug 2019, 11:36

100% agree with goodspeed. What I particularly don‘t get is why people flame on their own streams. It seems completely counter intuitive in my eyes, you‘d expect people to „behave“ themselves on camera, but it turns out to be the opposite at the moment.

Also people tend to get salty especially once they get better, see Blackstar or more recently Hazza as an example. Overall I think it’s an ego problem that exisits in every game, the difference is that within the AOE community it is tolerated while in other games it‘s not.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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07 Aug 2019, 11:47

Goodspeed wrote:I didn't only blame BS_OP?
BS_OP for example
I think he is a good example of a player who was there but didn't really feel like part of the community. Overall there were a lot of grudges among top players which will inevitably start to affect the way they respond to losses when they play against each other.
No doubt Ryan had his part in this, too, but I think this culture of flames and general hostility went much further than ragequits. Ragequits seem to me like more of a symptom than a cause.

Again, I'm not trying to go again Ryan, he's a nice person, and I understand that you want to defend your friend but imo his behaviour in 2015 was much more destructive than anyone else.
"You fucking suck, Jesus Christ" after losing to bsop or "You're so bad, you can't imagine, how am I losing to noobs like you? => pested for 3 months" after losing to a pr38- is very hostile lol.
Great Britain Hazza54321
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07 Aug 2019, 11:48

spadel wrote:100% agree with goodspeed. What I particularly don‘t get is why people flame on their own streams. It seems completely counter intuitive in my eyes, you‘d expect people to „behave“ themselves on camera, but it turns out to be the opposite at the moment.

Also people tend to get salty especially once they get better, see Blackstar or more recently Hazza as an example. Overall I think it’s an ego problem that exisits in every game, the difference is that within the AOE community it is tolerated while in other games it‘s not.

Fuck you spadel thought you were cool!!
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Turkey HUMMAN
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07 Aug 2019, 11:48

In my opinion you have to feel pain when losing if you want to improve in the game. Since it's a game, emotions are important for success rather than discipline(who would work for a dead game if not a hobby) In chess Bobby Fisher is a great example imo, he would literally cry when losing games, he cant stand losing. And it's more or less in every competitive scene though it's true people here are less chill. Like if i make a joke to a Hazza he would literally ban me in second lol. Another note to consider, people are kinda scrubs in aoe. Like nilla players, RE GP/deccan players, game was not balanced good and players tried to create sub-culture which is unhealthy for a game. We can still see in EP like no-NAT, wall-lame cry, sea lame, cease fire where players avoid these and try to make them illegimate turning game into their terms. which makes player base polarize.
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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07 Aug 2019, 11:50

I mean your jokes are kinda bad, i was just doing twitch chat a favour.
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Turkey HUMMAN
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07 Aug 2019, 11:51

Damn you are mature boy <3
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No Flag spadel
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07 Aug 2019, 12:08

Hazza54321 wrote:
spadel wrote:100% agree with goodspeed. What I particularly don‘t get is why people flame on their own streams. It seems completely counter intuitive in my eyes, you‘d expect people to „behave“ themselves on camera, but it turns out to be the opposite at the moment.

Also people tend to get salty especially once they get better, see Blackstar or more recently Hazza as an example. Overall I think it’s an ego problem that exisits in every game, the difference is that within the AOE community it is tolerated while in other games it‘s not.

Fuck you spadel thought you were cool!!


:huh: haha I admitted you got better tho, be happy for once
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France [Armag] diarouga
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07 Aug 2019, 12:24

spadel wrote:100% agree with goodspeed. What I particularly don‘t get is why people flame on their own streams. It seems completely counter intuitive in my eyes, you‘d expect people to „behave“ themselves on camera, but it turns out to be the opposite at the moment.

Also people tend to get salty especially once they get better, see Blackstar or more recently Hazza as an example. Overall I think it’s an ego problem that exisits in every game, the difference is that within the AOE community it is tolerated while in other games it‘s not.

The "it's tolerated" part is interesting. In Starcraft II, streamers also get mad (if you watch heromarine, he spends half his streams complaining about the balance xD), but they are not allowed to talk in tourney except for "glhf", "gg" and "pause" in most tournaments.

There was even a drama in 2013 where Stephano wrote "gl, hf" in proleague where you're not allowed to speak at all. The admins paused the game and he got warned. His opponent answered "gl" to make sure Stephano wouldn't get in trouble.
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Brazil lemmings121
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07 Aug 2019, 12:51

[Armag] diarouga wrote:The "it's tolerated" part is interesting. In Starcraft II, streamers also get mad (if you watch heromarine, he spends half his streams complaining about the balance xD), but they are not allowed to talk in tourney except for "glhf", "gg" and "pause" in most tournaments.
There was even a drama in 2013 where Stephano wrote "gl, hf" in proleague where you're not allowed to speak at all. The admins paused the game and he got warned. His opponent answered "gl" to make sure Stephano wouldn't get in trouble.


iirc in kespa a player got a map loss for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" to request a pause lol
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Holy See bepsi
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07 Aug 2019, 12:51

HUMMAN wrote:[...] Another note to consider, people are kinda scrubs in aoe. Like nilla players, RE GP/deccan players, game was not balanced good and players tried to create sub-culture which is unhealthy for a game. We can still see in EP like no-NAT, wall-lame cry, sea lame, cease fire where players avoid these and try to make them illegimate turning game into their terms. which makes player base polarize.


Funny enough, this was never a problem in the JP community which made for a much more entertaining game style to watch. Think Boneng in the PK Clan Tournament. The comparison between the JP community and ESOC also decisively disproves any theories that the rancid behaviour on display in the latter is to be blamed on the fast pace of the game, players getting better - thus more ego, or what have you.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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07 Aug 2019, 12:59

lemmings121 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The "it's tolerated" part is interesting. In Starcraft II, streamers also get mad (if you watch heromarine, he spends half his streams complaining about the balance xD), but they are not allowed to talk in tourney except for "glhf", "gg" and "pause" in most tournaments.
There was even a drama in 2013 where Stephano wrote "gl, hf" in proleague where you're not allowed to speak at all. The admins paused the game and he got warned. His opponent answered "gl" to make sure Stephano wouldn't get in trouble.


iirc in kespa a player got a map loss for typing "pp" instead of "ppp" to request a pause lol

lol
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Holy See bepsi
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07 Aug 2019, 13:21

Papist wrote:And as someone who's been a part of both communities for a long time, I haven't seen what you're saying about this community being a vehicle for in-group bullying and snobbery. Sure people here fault the RE for its technical bugs and bad civ balance, but who doesn't? And when has anyone here attacked the people who play on RE?


Garja wrote:Players on RE are bad, laggers, and they're lazy asses that would sell their mother for a couple of Elo points. They're similar minded as well. If I exclude those players basically I find more games on EP, even thought it means spending more time.
It's not just my opinion, it's a fact (which I guess is the same thing, hence your confusion) that the EP is better in every single aspect. Yes I'm arrogant, but I'm right, once again.

https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... ch#p153063

Such was the sentiment when it became increasingly clear that there was to be no mass migration of aoe3 players to the ESOC patch. Having been part of the community for a long time, surely this is not news to you.
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Italy Garja
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07 Aug 2019, 13:28

That was the sentiment regardless of mass migration or not. If you are high ranked and deliberately decide to remain on the RE patch chances are high you fall in that category.
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Holy See bepsi
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07 Aug 2019, 13:33

bepsi wrote:Interesting observation. I do think that the rift caused by the esoc patch, dividing the community into an self proclaimed class of 'pros' vis-a-vis the vast bulk of unwashed noobs still playing on the RE patch, generates a whole lot of toxicity in and of itself. The inherent country club mentality it fosters is conductive to in-group bullying and pecking order, and a snobbish attitude towards outsiders. Apart from the apparent evils this phenomenon is bound to generate, it will certainly also alienate the vast majority of potential community members globally who are unaccustomed to the anglo-american (ie puritist) mindset. Just my 2 cents. :kinggreen:


No further questions, your honor.
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Italy Garja
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07 Aug 2019, 13:36

???
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Holy See bepsi
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07 Aug 2019, 13:39

It's dead obvious.
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Italy Garja
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07 Aug 2019, 13:42

what is
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United States of America Papist
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07 Aug 2019, 13:43

You shouldn't take a fringe case like Garja as representative of the entire community.
The function of man is to live, not to exist.
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United States of America Papist
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07 Aug 2019, 13:50

Also, the post you cited is from three years ago, lol
The function of man is to live, not to exist.
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United States of America Cometk
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07 Aug 2019, 14:07

@bepsi garja was probably referring to the pr33+ players who remained in RE patch, not anyone else. It’s not as if there’s some collective hatred of 2nd lieutenants
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United States of America Cometk
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07 Aug 2019, 14:07

For example, @spadel is a huge noob who I wish would join more tournaments :(
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