Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

User avatar
European Union scarm
Howdah
Posts: 1439
Joined: Dec 7, 2018
ESO: Malebranche

Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by scarm »

So, the Maps mentioned in the title have a rather low amount of hunts but huge amounts of food in berries. Could Spice Trade be a valid option to send late colonial on those maps, because you also slow down the transition to mills and save wood in the short term? If yes for what civs? Is going onto water just better, esp. on Indonesia? Afaik sometimes people have/used to have spice trade in their russia decks due to the relatively free last age 2 slot.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yes for example instead of 700f
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Kaiserklein »

Yea I think it's a fine card on few maps
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
No Flag deleted_user0
Ninja
Posts: 13004
Joined: Apr 28, 2020

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

  • Quote

Post by deleted_user0 »

I would never use it. You won't send it early, a lot of food has been deployed already, your crates have been sent which means that probably at least 30% of your vills are on wood+gold. You might get a short temporary advantage of sending spice trade instead of eco theory but in a long run spice trade is completely useless and eco theory boosting your eco 10% rest of the game. Also, eco theory goes to age 1 slot which is better than age 2.

Both are overkill. Eco theory>Spice trade.
Australia Hazza54321
Pro Player
Winter Champion 2020 x2Donator 01
Posts: 8049
Joined: May 4, 2015
ESO: PrinceofBabu

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Hazza54321 »

Idk on a map like cascade and its like 15mins i think its worth it with the 5 berry patches.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Kaiserklein »

somppukunkku wrote:I would never use it. You won't send it early, a lot of food has been deployed already, your crates have been sent which means that probably at least 30% of your vills are on wood+gold. You might get a short temporary advantage of sending spice trade instead of eco theory but in a long run spice trade is completely useless and eco theory boosting your eco 10% rest of the game. Also, eco theory goes to age 1 slot which is better than age 2.

Both are overkill. Eco theory>Spice trade.

Nah it's not that clear. On some maps you use hunts then berries until minute 25-30, so spice trade can definitely be fine for late colo. Agreed, eco theory is as good if you have 2/3 of your vils on food, and better if you have less, but with most civs you probs have 2/3 anyway. And in late colo you can send both
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
Italy gamevideo113
Howdah
Posts: 1899
Joined: Apr 26, 2017
ESO: gamevideo113

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by gamevideo113 »

Quik mafs:
20% on 0.67 is 0.134
Compare to 700f
700f/0.134=VS needed to gather 700 extra food from the spice trade bonus alone=5224 VS
Assuming you have 20 vils on berries that means 261 seconds.
VS starts paying off roughly 4 minutes after you sent it, compared to 700f, assuming you have 20 vils on berries.

Let's look at it another way:
You have 5 berry bushes in base, so 5000f
Gathered at 0.67, they run out after 7463 seconds
Gathered at 0.804 they run out after 6219 seconds
You gained 1244 vill seconds after gathering 5 bushes, that means 249 VS for each bush

Doesn't seem too great if you ask me. On top of that you could also send refrigeration instead that can boost mills as well or eco theory which has the same effect but the benefit is halved.
[Some people aspire to be pr30+, some people aspire to have fun, and some people aspire to play 3v3 Deccan.] - vividlyplain - 2019 Who (nationality) rape ?
stupid logic. noob players can say op?
toxic, Insult, Racism ?
User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Garja »

Yes it's a great card. Also eco theory after that, when you chop for mills and for mills themselves.
4 minute is an acceptable time frame to pay off and usually at the point when you are on berries it's more than 20v anyway.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Greece BrookG
Retired Contributor
Posts: 2009
Joined: Feb 21, 2016
ESO: BrookG
Location: Thessaloniki

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by BrookG »

Spice trade doesn't affect gathering from mills, does it?
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

"mr.brookg go buy jeans and goto the club with somppuli" - Princeofkabul, July 2018
User avatar
Great Britain Riotcoke
Retired Contributor
ECL Reigning ChampsDonator 01
Posts: 4088
Joined: May 7, 2019
ESO: Riotcoke
Location: Dorsetshire
Clan: UwU

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Riotcoke »

BrookG wrote:Spice trade doesn't affect gathering from mills, does it?

No
Image

twitch.tv/stangoesdeepTV
User avatar
France bwinner
Howdah
Donator 01
Posts: 1292
Joined: Mar 14, 2016
ESO: bwinner

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by bwinner »

At least not on Indonesia, cuz if you are using water you want rather fishing boats up and if you aren't, you want to be aggressive.
Image
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

There used to be a strategy where Russia ages up with 17 vills and gets a TP in discovery allowing them to squeeze in spice trade. I haven't seen that strategy in years so it must be ineffective. The biggest problem is that there will always be better cards to send as Somppu says. Ports can also use spice trade in niche circumstances (and on RE), but even for ports 700f is just better.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

That was before the TP meta. You didn't have to worry about the opponent going to fortress, and it's a great late colonial build.
It's sad, because currently the only way to play Russia is the bot way : 5coss rush and spam units and bh all over the map.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Kaiserklein »

gamevideo113 wrote:Quik mafs:
20% on 0.67 is 0.134
Compare to 700f
700f/0.134=VS needed to gather 700 extra food from the spice trade bonus alone=5224 VS
Assuming you have 20 vils on berries that means 261 seconds.
VS starts paying off roughly 4 minutes after you sent it, compared to 700f, assuming you have 20 vils on berries.

Let's look at it another way:
You have 5 berry bushes in base, so 5000f
Gathered at 0.67, they run out after 7463 seconds
Gathered at 0.804 they run out after 6219 seconds
You gained 1244 vill seconds after gathering 5 bushes, that means 249 VS for each bush

Doesn't seem too great if you ask me. On top of that you could also send refrigeration instead that can boost mills as well or eco theory which has the same effect but the benefit is halved.

For one thing, the point of spice trade is that you can ship it when you're still on hunts, which means more food income than what you calculated.
For another, 4 minutes to pay off is totally fine. For the record, a 5 vils shipment with gang saw researched takes a bit more than 4 minutes to gather 700w, and same for a bank wagon to gather 700g.

Ah and ofc refrigeration is way superior. But that's an age 3 card.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
User avatar
New Zealand zoom
Gendarme
Posts: 9314
Joined: Apr 26, 2015
ESO: Funnu
Location: New_Sweland

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by zoom »

I think it's never a viable option, early, but after hunts run out, surely.
France Kaiserklein
Pro Player
Posts: 10278
Joined: Jun 6, 2015
Location: Paris
GameRanger ID: 5529322

Re: Spice Trade on Cascade Range/Indonesia/Klondike etc

Post by Kaiserklein »

Depends on the amount of hunts on the map. Klondike without TPs would be a great example of a map where spice trade would be viable in late colonial. You could ship it before hunts even run out (at like 15 min or so) and then use it on the berries.
In fact we don't see it often on this map because most of the time you're busy fighting for the TP line and/or fortress already.
Image
Image
Image
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV