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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 11:08

HeadKilla wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:[quote="bepsi" Germany is hard to play however, so if a noob picks Germany he'll make mistakes a lose, but if you play Germany well, then you just don't lose because the civ is op.


It seems like 90% of players, myself included, could not take advantage of the OP advantages Germany seems to have. We simply are not playing at a high enough level to where the level of imbalance is actually effecting our games. I read Germany was OP. I wanted to beat my friends on a more consistent level, I started playing Germany. I lost many, many games in a row despite 200w start or TP non-TP maps. However when we watch the highest level players go head to head, it is obvious that something is going on with Germany.

Yea totally.
Thing is, we have to balance the game around high level and there Germany is too strong.
I totally understand your frustration though, in Starcraft 2, I just keep losing to protoss all in or DTs while it's not that strong at progamer level, and I wish it was weaker.
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14 Aug 2019, 11:10

bepsi wrote:I think BSOP had great success rushing with Japan, if that is what you are referring to


Nah I play Japan by H2O doctrine: Maximum greed :mrgreen:
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 11:11

bepsi wrote:I think BSOP had great success rushing with Japan, if that is what you are referring to, and the videos are still available for download (Buckethead hosts them somehow on a web service). I would've loved to see how any top player today would have fared with France or Germany vs BSOPs or H2Os Japan in their prime.

Japan had great success rushing with Japan in some MUs, but he would never do that against France or Germany.
H2O's Japan was op because Japan was op back then to be honest (ashis had +2 attack, and shrines gathered like +0.20 resources/sec). After the nerf, he's always said that Japan wasn't really above average.
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Holy See bepsi
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14 Aug 2019, 11:24

BSOP did a 10/10 Japan rush vs Garja's france and won decisively on stream. The whole notion that some players have been blessed with an arcane knowledge of the game rendering their dogmatically held beliefs beyond question is simply cringe worthy.
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14 Aug 2019, 11:26

I feel like maybe people don't rush/hard contain Germany enough.

Germany is only OP if they can (semi-) FF with their massive age3 shipments.

You can even double rax Jan rush Spain (which has a tower in base, more shipments, dogs and a faster age up when considering that you get units and not just exiled prince) as evidenced by that one game in which H2o lost as Spain when FFing.

So obviously you should be able to do something similar against Germany, even if they have uhlans and 8 xbow. It's actually not so easy to send those if you are housed as well.

People always say that nobody good should lose to a rush due to MM and 8xbow, but I don't think it is that easy. A player has to make decisions at certain points: which shipments to send, getting treasures or TPs, when and where to scout. Lots of people even at the top level play fairly blindly (no proper scouting until it is too late) as Germany and just go bot semi 5 Uhlan FF for example. If you then hard rush with double rax musks you might be able to seriously damage or kill him.

It's not like you can always just magically have 3 SW, age up fast, have 8 xbow, defend and not die. Also see the tabben game last tourney where he lost to a rush/contain.

Sure, if the German player scouts perfectly, walls up, goes for a fast FF or first makes some xbows before aging he might hold/win. But that goes for every strategy; I'm not saying that there is a 100 % win start vs Germany.

Maybe it would be better not to play into Germany's hands just like you wouldn't normally FF as Aztec VS China. People always talk about this being due to the "FF Meta", but meta is not necessarily the best way to play just the most common one at a time. If the meta changes within just a few years without any outward balance or map changes, then maybe people right now also just don't play optimally VS Germany (not saying I necessarily know better, but top players change their opinions over time as well as new strats emerge, eg aaztec FI or meme fire).

Tl;dr: maybe Germany right now is in part considered so strong, because it aligns with people's current preferences ("the meta") being to (semi) FF, which might not be necessarily the best strat, especially VS Germany.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 11:26

bepsi wrote:BSOP did a 10/10 Japan rush vs Garja's france and won decisively on stream. The whole notion that some players have been blessed with an arcane knowledge of the game rendering their dogmatically held beliefs beyond question is simply cringe worthy.

It was on a no TP and there was a big skill gap between bsop and Garja.
If he tried the same on a TP map against someone closer to his level, he would have lost.
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14 Aug 2019, 11:33

Astaroth wrote:I feel like maybe people don't rush/hard contain Germany enough.

Germany is only OP if they can (semi-) FF with their massive age3 shipments.

You can even double rax Jan rush Spain (which has a tower in base, more shipments, dogs and a faster age up when considering that you get units and not just exiled prince) as evidenced by that one game in which H2o lost as Spain when FFing.

So obviously you should be able to do something similar against Germany, even if they have uhlans and 8 xbow. It's actually not so easy to send those if you are housed as well.

People always say that nobody good should lose to a rush due to MM and 8xbow, but I don't think it is that easy. A player has to make decisions at certain points: which shipments to send, getting treasures or TPs, when and where to scout. Lots of people even at the top level play fairly blindly (no proper scouting until it is too late) as Germany and just go bot semi 5 Uhlan FF for example. If you then hard rush with double rax musks you might be able to seriously damage or kill him.

It's not like you can always just magically have 3 SW, age up fast, have 8 xbow, defend and not die. Also see the tabben game last tourney where he lost to a rush/contain.

Sure, if the German player scouts perfectly, walls up, goes for a fast FF or first makes some xbows before aging he might hold/win. But that goes for every strategy; I'm not saying that there is a 100 % win start vs Germany.

Maybe it would be better not to play into Germany's hands just like you wouldn't normally FF as Aztec VS China. People always talk about this being due to the "FF Meta", but meta is not necessarily the best way to play just the most common one at a time. If the meta changes within just a few years without any outward balance or map changes, then maybe people right now also just don't play optimally VS Germany (not saying I necessarily know better, but top players change their opinions over time as well as new stats emerge, eg aaztec FI or meme fire).

1) You can double rax jan rush Spain because Spain doesn't have xbow shipments lol.
If you do that against Germany, he's going to bow/pike in age 2 instead of going age 3 and you'll lose your fb. Top players aren't dumb lol, it has been tried and it doesn't work if scouted.

2) If you don't scout and uhlan semi you'll lose to a double musk rush indeed. However, with 2 uhlans at 5:10 you're going to raid your opponent and if you see no military buildings you'll know what to expect.
If you can't scout a proxy two rax rush, you just deserve to lose.
Going double rax rush is a huge gamble however, because if your opponent scouts it you're dead (could bow semi with walls or even play age 2 and kill his fb). You shouldn't have to gamble in a fair MU and that's the issue with Germany, you have to hope he makes a mistake because if he doesn't you lose. That's the definition of an op civ actually.

3) Again, top players aren't dumb lol, we tried to play age 2 but it just doesn't work.
Germany can get war wagons and kite your musk/huss army forever, and that's if he doesn't wall, against tabben it's just impossible to play age 2. You have to go age 3 at one point against Germany unless you manage to make a lot of damage early on and force him to stay in age 2.
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14 Aug 2019, 11:34

Astaroth wrote:I feel like maybe people don't rush/hard contain Germany enough.

Germany is only OP if they can (semi-) FF with their massive age3 shipments.

You can even double rax Jan rush Spain (which has a tower in base, more shipments, dogs and a faster age up when considering that you get units and not just exiled prince) as evidenced by that one game in which H2o lost as Spain when FFing.

So obviously you should be able to do something similar against Germany, even if they have uhlans and 8 xbow. It's actually not so easy to send those if you are housed as well.

People always say that nobody good should lose to a rush due to MM and 8xbow, but I don't think it is that easy. A player has to make decisions at certain points: which shipments to send, getting treasures or TPs, when and where to scout. Lots of people even at the top level play fairly blindly (no proper scouting until it is too late) as Germany and just go bot semi 5 Uhlan FF for example. If you then hard rush with double rax musks you might be able to seriously damage or kill him.

It's not like you can always just magically have 3 SW, age up fast, have 8 xbow, defend and not die. Also see the tabben game last tourney where he lost to a rush/contain.

Sure, if the German player scouts perfectly, walls up, goes for a fast FF or first makes some xbows before aging he might hold/win. But that goes for every strategy; I'm not saying that there is a 100 % win start vs Germany.

Maybe it would be better not to play into Germany's hands just like you wouldn't normally FF as Aztec VS China. People always talk about this being due to the "FF Meta", but meta is not necessarily the best way to play just the most common one at a time. If the meta changes within just a few years without any outward balance or map changes, then maybe people right now also just don't play optimally VS Germany (not saying I necessarily know better, but top players change their opinions over time as well as new strats emerge, eg aaztec FI or meme fire).

Tl;dr: maybe Germany right now is in part considered so strong, because it aligns with people's current preferences ("the meta") being to (semi) FF, which might not be necessarily the best strat, especially VS Germany.

german has a ranged unit shipment thats the point. Also its hard to fb when u know 2 uhlans are coming your way
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14 Aug 2019, 11:42

Goodspeed wrote:Have you tried musk rushing 'em
Don't be silly – of course not!
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14 Aug 2019, 11:42

A good example of what I mean is actually German mirror. Why do people go dopps in German mirror on TP maps? Dopps are not considered a particularly good unit (at least they are very expensive and situational). So why does the other German player not just FF against it? Primarily because it is too risky, you might be belled, raided and/or your buildings razed.

Lots of civs have units that are actually better than dopps (musks). So why not use those to rush or at least pressure? Sure, they have less siege than dopps, but they have more range, beat xbows situational and can also raid vills more easily.

If Germany wouldn't freely/safely/successfully (semi) FF vs dopps, why would they vs musks?

Also note that the doppel meta is fairly new, people used to Uhlan semi FF in mirror. Things change and evolve, so maybe some strategies are being overlooked.

@[Armag] diarouga: I'm not saying anyone is dumb, but as you know yourself, meta changes even without (significant) balance changes. Indian sepoys are arguably used more at the top level despite being nerfed. Aztec FI was discovered without any changes many years after game release. Same with memefire.

Lots of people use and find new strategies all the time. Many people play differently. Originally, people would never use walls, now they are used despite being nerfed, even at the top level.

Point is: meta is not set in stone and often more based on preferences than anything else.

As far as rushing Germany is concerned: it's impossible to describe every possible situation and discuss it. The point is though, as you agree, a full rush can kill a German ff or semi. Obviously Germany can adapt against that - - but so can the rusher. If Germany defends, they either go 8 bows or 700w first, already slowing them down. If they go 3 SW, they remain very vulnerable.

Just because the rusher made one or two raxes that doesn't mean he can't then manor boom or send 4 cdb or grab TPs. Also, as you know, Germany loses a prolonged age2 fight VS almost every civ.

I just feel it is not all so cut and clear. A semi FF vs Germany might seem like a nice and safe option because it isn't as all in, but maybe the winning chances would actually be better if you forced an age2 engagement. And yes, WWs can kite, but 3 WWs don't beat high numbers of musks (or you get belled /hunting vills killed).

I actually haven't seen that many games in which Germany was under heavy age2 pressure. Most people instead seem to just go into an FF war and/or boom/turtle (depending on civ) and then get overwhelmed. In some games in which people did pressure and annoy Germany early on (eg Turk (I think?) as Japan vs tabben's Germany he at least killed 2 TPs etc and later on mostly lost a fairly even game due to micro/bad engagements; or the tournament game where tabben lost VS brits).

@Hazza54321: the fb should be up before the 2 uhlans arrive, right? Or do you mean that your base gets raided? VS the latter you can also protect yourself by making 50w worth of walls around your hunts and mine which on EP should be close to your TC anyway.
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Holy See bepsi
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14 Aug 2019, 11:53

@Astaroth adding to your point, I have seen players such as MusketJr pull off very clean and convincing musket pressure vs Germany in high level games so certainly it can be done and is very effective. Lack of imagination is no sound basis for overhauling the entire game by nerfing civs one has a visceral dislike for.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 12:00

Why do people go dopps in German mirror on TP maps?

Because with dopps you can kill your opponent's TP and then age safely. With the other civs (France for example), you usually also want to kill the TP and then age, but you still lose because Germany is too strong in age 3.

lots of civs have units that are actually better than dopps (musks). So why not use those to rush or at least pressure?

That's exactly what people do.

Point is: meta is not set in stone and often more based on preferences than anything else.

That's a fair point, however you could also use it for RE Iro. After all, why would we nerf RE Iro? It's not op, just people play wrong against it lol. That's not really an argument.

If Germany defends, they either go 8 bows or 700w first, already slowing them down.

Nope. You go 3SW first and you make xbow/pike. It's enough to hold any rush (Otto, India, Iro, Aztec), then it's about the follow up. My point is that the follow up is too strong.

Just because the rusher made one or two raxes that doesn't mean he can't then manor boom or send 4 cdb or grab TPs.

Well it does. If you go for two forward rax and boom behind it, your opponent will either go for a colonial timing against your fb (in which case you'll lose your fb and then the game), or age and won't be punished because you boomed.
Again, you're gambling on the German player not adapting. It's hard to defend and adapt, true, much harder than rushing, but at high level people can do that and then Germany wins.

I actually haven't seen that many games in which Germany was under heavy age2 pressure.

Because it has been tried in the past and it doesn't really work against proper defense.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 12:01

bepsi wrote:@Astaroth adding to your point, I have seen players such as MusketJr pull off very clean and convincing musket pressure vs Germany in high level games so certainly it can be done and is very effective. Lack of imagination is no sound basis for overhauling the entire game by nerfing civs one has a visceral dislike for.

Lol, musketJR hasn't played for years, and back then people didn't know how to play Germany.
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14 Aug 2019, 12:07

I mean, it is the same with many civs: they all have their strengths and the opponent should ideally try to exploit that. Eg Japan has a strong boom and army if left alone, so most people try to pressure them hard before that happens. Ports are unstoppable if you let them get to age4 with uncontested water boom. China has a crazy FF mass.

People (ideally) don't just look at the best possible situation a civ can be in and compare it to their own civ at the exact point in time of the game, but instead try to force a situation in which their own civ has an advantage (Germany eg is fairly weak if they have to stay age 2), hence timings.

@[Armag] diarouga: but the few times I have seen it tried it often worked very well. Even if Germany won, it struggled very hard and the game could've gone either way (50-50).

You also mention both players adapting, which is exactly what I am saying. I feel that with many civs, Germany is a relatively fair match up if you pressure or rush them early. Germany only feels OP if you just go for a bot FF to match theirs. But that goes for most matchups. Should Aztec or Russia do a regular FF VS China?
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14 Aug 2019, 12:14

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Have you tried musk rushing 'em

8bows+mm => all musks dead.

Seriously, if musk rush doesn't work as France, and hardly with brit, it's not going to work with Spain.
What about cav start + pike and rod shipments
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14 Aug 2019, 12:27

Goodspeed wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:Have you tried musk rushing 'em

8bows+mm => all musks dead.

Seriously, if musk rush doesn't work as France, and hardly with brit, it's not going to work with Spain.
What about cav start + pike and rod shipments

Germany could just bow semi with walls honestly, and then Spain is stuck in age 2 vs skirm/war wagons.
It's okay on big ATP maps, but if you don't have 4+ TPs with stagecoach it's super bad.

Ah, and also Germany can go for the infamous 3sw/700c ff on 200w start and then there's nothing you can do, regardless of your civ.
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Netherlands Goodspeed
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14 Aug 2019, 12:34

I'm not saying Germans should lose but I'd say there are better options than naked FF, which is just playing into Germans' hands. When you have the worse civ you need to think of anti-meta ways to throw your opponent off. If you would adapt into a bow semi against a scouted stable then what's stopping Spain from not making a single unit and just aging?
Ah, and also Germany can go for the infamous 3sw/700c ff on 200w start and then there's nothing you can do, regardless of your civ.
Oh my hyperbole!
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14 Aug 2019, 12:37

I tried it. They just bow dop in colonial and win with superior mass. Or they idle abit whilst aging and then they abuse wws vs either late colonial spain, or spains slow age up.
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14 Aug 2019, 12:39

Goodspeed wrote:I'm not saying Germans should lose but I'd say there are better anti-meta options than naked FF, which just seems suicidal. If you would adapt into a bow semi against a scouted stable then what's stopping Spain from not making a single unit and just aging?

You probably don't even need to bow semi, but that's safe. Anyway I'm pretty sure bow semi > building a stable and not making a single unit.

I get your point though, you can go anti-meta against Germany, and often that's better than playing standard. Having to play anti meta and cheese against a civ means that the civ is op, and that's what I'm complaining about. If the ger player scouts what you're doing and doesn't make a mistake, you're going to lose, even if you play well.
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Italy Garja
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14 Aug 2019, 12:53

No need anti meta, just good play with those civs that actually have a chance.
As Spain you can musk semi shipping 7 rods in transition and mixing 5 rods and 5 dogs. Together with 4 huss you have enough stuff vs potential skirms while u're aging and also vs pure WW. Then you just need to mix units to counter what Germans send.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 12:55

Garja wrote:No need anti meta, just good play with those civs that actually have a chance.
As Spain you can musk semi shipping 7 rods in transition and mixing 5 rods and 5 dogs. Together with 4 huss you have enough stuff vs potential skirms while u're aging and also vs pure WW. Then you just need to mix units to counter what Germans send.

Then Germany goes full WW with skirm shipments and you won't ever have enough skirms to deal with that because no skirm shipments.
Also the Spain musk semi is weaker than the French musk semi so if it worked you'd also do that as France.
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14 Aug 2019, 13:12

[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also the Spain musk semi is weaker than the French musk semi so if it worked you'd also do that as France.


I thought musk-semi was the way to go vs Ger as French, is the LordRaphael guide outdated?
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 13:14

Kawapasaka wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:Also the Spain musk semi is weaker than the French musk semi so if it worked you'd also do that as France.


I thought musk-semi was the way to go vs Ger as French, is the LordRaphael guide outdated?

Well, agressive musk semi. Passive musk semi is shit.
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Italy Garja
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14 Aug 2019, 13:15

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:No need anti meta, just good play with those civs that actually have a chance.
As Spain you can musk semi shipping 7 rods in transition and mixing 5 rods and 5 dogs. Together with 4 huss you have enough stuff vs potential skirms while u're aging and also vs pure WW. Then you just need to mix units to counter what Germans send.

Then Germany goes full WW with skirm shipments and you won't ever have enough skirms to deal with that because no skirm shipments.
Also the Spain musk semi is weaker than the French musk semi so if it worked you'd also do that as France.

You have falcs and then you add cav. As Spain you can and should mix more unit types more quickly. If he goes more WW you add rods and goons. You literally want all unit types at some point. The only problem is like when German sends jaegers because then you simply don't have an answer to such power spike. In that case you need to add huss before that or a foundry for more falcs.
You need to go passive musk semi to protect your vills.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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14 Aug 2019, 13:20

falcs vs WW? :hmm:

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