Should starting crates be fixed for all civilizations?

Yes
46
59%
No
32
41%
 
Total votes: 78

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New Zealand zoom
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13 Aug 2019, 21:34

Although I am particularly interested in your opinion, I'm not particularly interested in arguing this topic, now. I will only say that it would definitively help balancing civilizations, significantly.


IIRC, last time we did this, it was split right down the middle. Thank you for your thoughts!
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France Kaiserklein
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13 Aug 2019, 21:36

Lazy and bad solution
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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13 Aug 2019, 21:37

its a boring change but it might have to be done. Civs with wood starts are kinda op and asian civs with gold start seem abit shit
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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13 Aug 2019, 21:38

Changes the meta too much and makes for dull gameplay.
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Somalia somppukunkku
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13 Aug 2019, 21:41

Kaiserklein wrote:Lazy and bad solution

Read: I play civs that get huge advantage having wood starts and I know the top civs won't have fixed wood starts. Therefore, I don't want the game to be more competitive as random crates give bring me advantage.
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Sweden Hawk_Girl
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13 Aug 2019, 21:43

Doesn't exactly make china a boring civ having a fixed crate start..
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New Zealand zoom
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13 Aug 2019, 21:44

somppukunkku wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Lazy and bad solution

Read: I play civs that get huge advantage having wood starts and I know the top civs won't have fixed wood starts. Therefore, I don't want the game to be more competitive as random crates give bring me advantage.
Maybe he likes the variety, even if it's mostly not meaningful (choice-driven).
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 21:44

I have to admit that Zoi is actually doing a very good job, by finally asking the right questions. :ohmy:

As most people know, I am totally for fixed crates, and I believe that it would drastically improve the balance. In fact, remove the 200w start for Germany would be the best way to balance the civ honestly.

Most people don't understand how big random crate is, I'll take some examples to try to prove that it is game changing.
1) Let's consider Dutch vs Japan.

A) On a wood start, Japan will get a consulate and a shrine for free, and will start aging at about 3min without treasures.
On a wood start, Dutch will start aging at 3min.

B) On a coin start, Japan will have to chop 105wood, and age at 3min20 because of that.
Dutch however, can age with 14 villagers, that is to say 2min40.

In the end, there's 40-50 second difference in relative age up time between both these scenarios. How is this acceptable? You're 40 seconds slower than your opponent just because you got an unlucky crate start, no wonder aoe2 players make fun of us xD.

2) China vs any civ

We all know China has fixed crates while your opponent doesn't. Thus, sometimes your opponent gets +100f, sometimes he gets +100f+100w and you get the same crates.
Again, how is it fair to start with +100w or -100w, just based on luck?

The biggest issue is still Germany and the TP start of course (yea, bigger than being +40sec faster or starting with -100w), but since experience isn't a normal resource, I can't really explain it, so you'll have to trust me on that.

Anyway, it doesn't really make the game "boring and dull", the only real difference is that you can't take TPs in age 1, which is exactly what fixed crates is meant to fix, as it is probably the biggest balance issue right now.

If people think it's too boring, removing wood start from Germany would be enough for me.
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Great Britain Hazza54321
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13 Aug 2019, 21:46

variety is good but maybe somehow make everytime dutch gets a coin start other dude gets wood start and vice versa rather than huge changes in both directions.
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Somalia somppukunkku
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13 Aug 2019, 21:47

For variety, make some maps start with (known) extra crate and people can adjust their civs according to that in tournament. Variety. Win-Win.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 21:48

Hazza54321 wrote:variety is good but maybe somehow make everytime dutch gets a coin start other dude gets wood start and vice versa rather than huge changes in both directions.

It's still bad honestly. Coin start is the best for Dutch but playing against a wood start (ie free TP for nilla civs) and a coin start (market) is just not the same, and it would be unfair for Dutch.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 21:50

somppukunkku wrote:For variety, make some maps start with (known) extra crate and people can adjust their civs according to that in tournament. Variety. Win-Win.

Yea, Fixing the crates on each map seems better.
Seriously, I would just mirror Germany every time there's a 200w start instead of picking okish MUs on 100w start and praying not to get the 200w start lol.
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France flontier
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13 Aug 2019, 21:52

Fre gonna be very sad, rip 8 huss opening :(
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Brazil 5CH3U3R
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13 Aug 2019, 21:59

An alternative way would be to define that the random box could not be of the OP resource type for that civilization. For example:
German random box: food or gold;
Dutch random box: Wood or food;

Another option would be to set the random box as the second best option for that civilization. For example:
German Random Box: Gold
Dutch random box: wood

Still I think fixing all the boxes is a better option.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 22:01

5CH3U3R wrote:An alternative way would be to define that the random box could not be of the OP resource type for that civilization. For example:
German random box: food or gold;
Dutch random box: Wood or food;

Another option would be to set the random box as the second best option for that civilization. For example:
German Random Box: Gold
Dutch random box: wood

Still I think fixing all the boxes is a better option.

Yea, as I said, removing wood for Germany and coin for Japan is enough for me as it fixes the balance issues.
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Australia Peachrocks
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13 Aug 2019, 22:05

Ironically despite me seemingly being in favour of the random with natives I am pro fixed crates for one simple reason. Certain extra crates are near useless for some civs while others outright change their entire early game.

Randomly being able or not being able to do something in the first moments of the game is utter nonsense. In the big picture it doesn’t add diversity to strategy it conforms it.
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New Zealand zoom
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13 Aug 2019, 22:09

Could still keep the random bonus food crate, as well, to change the pace of games, for variety.
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Malawi princeofcarthage
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13 Aug 2019, 22:10

If you achieve relative balance on a common ground in case say no tp maps or tp maps either way, random crates wouldn't be an issue rather open up multiple gameplay options
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New Zealand zoom
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13 Aug 2019, 22:13

5CH3U3R wrote:An alternative way would be to define that the random box could not be of the OP resource type for that civilization. For example:
German random box: food or gold;
Dutch random box: Wood or food;

Another option would be to set the random box as the second best option for that civilization. For example:
German Random Box: Gold
Dutch random box: wood

Still I think fixing all the boxes is a better option.
This should solve most of the balance issues, but if anything, it just highlights the persistent problem: One spawn will simply be superior to the other, without offering any options in strategy.
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Brazil macacoalbino
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13 Aug 2019, 22:17

zoom wrote:This should solve most of the balance issues, but if anything, it just highlights the persistent problem: One spawn will simply be superior to the other, without offering any options in strategy.

Isn't it the case with any given crate spawn though?
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Italy gamevideo113
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13 Aug 2019, 22:21

It's hard to say. On one hand it feels like fixing crates would take away from the game mechanics, on the other hand it is kinda necessary if we want to achieve the best balance possible.
I'm not against randomness in crate spawns but i think the randomness should be a bit standardized. Maybe give every civ a 50% chance of an extra food crate and a 50% (maybe 30?) chance of a second best crate (different for each civ) like 5CH3U3R was suggesting

So ger has fixed 100w 200f and on top of that 50% chance of food crate and 50%(/30%) chance of coin crate.
I think it would be sad to completely remove market starts or any kind of discovery age variety.
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New Zealand zoom
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13 Aug 2019, 22:23

macacoalbino wrote:
zoom wrote:This should solve most of the balance issues, but if anything, it just highlights the persistent problem: One spawn will simply be superior to the other, without offering any options in strategy.

Isn't it the case with any given crate spawn though?
Absolutely—minus the balance issues.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 22:24

princeofcarthage wrote:If you achieve relative balance on a common ground in case say no tp maps or tp maps either way, random crates wouldn't be an issue rather open up multiple gameplay options

We've discussed that a lot, but a lot of people (me included) believe that reaching a balance between TP and no TP is impossible.
Furthermore, coin start would still be an issue for Japan and India, and you'd still start with +100w against China sometimes.
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France [Armag] diarouga
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13 Aug 2019, 22:25

macacoalbino wrote:
zoom wrote:This should solve most of the balance issues, but if anything, it just highlights the persistent problem: One spawn will simply be superior to the other, without offering any options in strategy.

Isn't it the case with any given crate spawn though?

Nope, read my first post.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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13 Aug 2019, 22:26

Would it be possible to make random crate spawns mu dependent? I.e have random crates on mus that are relatively unaffected by crate spawns but fixed crates otherwise?
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