Nootka Thread

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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

Thats a good point about the tres tbh...
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

scarm wrote:I'd suggest reading bwinners otto guide for example or watching some games where people lame with nootka or huaminca. Those units high siege damage already makes laming with their respective treasures viable, and for otto for example going for a cheese nat rush is already one of the better option on no TP Maps where nootka or inca are present. Buffing Nootka literally risks turning Cascade range into Nootka Cheese Wonderland and might also create more fucked up Treasure lames.


Nootka's rushing capabilities weren't improved and the unit itself wouldn't be improved under the current proposal meaning the treasure would also remain unchanged though there is talk of removing those treasures in any case which I fully support.

The only thing suggested was improving their potlatch tech and their war chief which helps them later on rather than making them only good at brain dead rushing or Nootka Cheese Wonderland as put here. Also forgive me if I'm wrong but I don't think any map exists where Inca do but trade posts don't. Furthermore Inca aren't as good at siege as their numbers might indicate because its a 4 ROF rather than 3.

Also I'm pretty sure in the LAN (could be wrong) Nootka nor Klamath didn't get used once on Cascade Range.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by scarm »

I wasn't referring specifically to your proposal, just to buffing Nootkas in general. Also every buff to the Nootka in general would also obviously make the Nat rush better since you already have the TP.

Pampas Sierras. Might be more, dont remember. And Huamincas are a fucking insane unit, in sup and in treaty.

That might be because Cascade Range wasnt actually part of the map pool lol. Also in a tour setting nobody would ever pick otto into cascade range i dont think because no tp. The last part about cheese wonderland was obviously an hyperbole, but still, you have to consider shit like that, because small changes can ver quickly escalate due to shit like that.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

Ah yes Pampas Sierras. Fair enough. Was thinking normal maps and then some ESOC. Also yes, Huaminca are good. There's a reason I ranked them S on my tier list. The Inca won't be getting much of anything in the way of changes in my suggestions. They might even get nerfs, especially if natives in general receive buffs. Honestly I don't like their 20% infantry tech or their faster training but that's for later.

Okay it wasn't the LAN maybe its other events I've seen a lot of Cascade on and Nootka/Klamath being ignored despite being a pretty solid combination. Okay obviously my memory is bad. I just know I didn't see natives once and that made me sad.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by scarm »

Idk Man, you just seem to ignore every occasion natives are actually used. Recently watched a game Somppu vs Rapha on Tibet where Somppu used Rattans do decent effect. I personally today lost a game because i couldn't hunt starve my opponent because they rushed cheyenne tech. The huron bb in the turk vs tabben game. The wickedcossack game Riotcoke linked i the other thread. There are plenty examples.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by dansil92 »

rattan rush is broken tbh. some natives will always be bad and i think that is ok. halbs and grens are situational, pikes are situational, flame throwers are situational/useless, i think some units need to be better and more viable. navajo skirms are trash for example and that's ok because they are fast and stealthy, and thus, situational
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

Okay but these examples are like 1/50 at best. Furthermore the poll at least did go 65%/35%. Not enough though because the 35% arguing against (sometimes in absolute ignorance) is quite loud and I'm done with it. I've tried being civil and polite and understanding the other side of the argument (because it is valid) but I think it's time for some honesty.

The fact that knowing everything about these natives helps in 1/50 games at best is absolute nonsense. The game is so robotic and I think some people like it this way because they don't want to actually have to think. So many games are like this these days and Diarouga said to me very early 'why don't I go play something else'. This is why. I've been searching for a game to actually sink my teeth into for years and it looks like I'm going to have to keep searching because so many games are about doing the same meta thing over and over and not being creative with game knowledge. Aoe3 has the potential to actually reward diversity and creative thinking yet it very rarely does. Some might say it does, but nowhere near enough as far as I'm concerned.

I don't want natives used every game, hell I'd settle for 1/15 or for some to have the potential of silly strats beyond rushing but seriously a fair amount of them are so niche that they 'might' get used once out of 1000 games and are completely unsuitable for building any strategy around other than 'if the game goes to 50+ minutes'. Were they honestly used once during the LAN outside of canoes? I didn't watch every game I openly admit it but I watched a fair amount of them and didn't see them used once. Not once and some of them were quite good too. If it's because of ignorance, then at the highest level that ignorance should be punished. Most games do that, even notoriously stale ones.

Maybe the reason they don't get used is ignorance. Maybe people don't know how good some of them are and in some cases that's definitely true. However there are some that are so woefully useless and even in those cases I get people telling me they are actually good and then I show them the numbers then it's 'silence'. I'm more than happy to admit I'm wrong (as above as a mild example) and in some cases I very well might be but I'm tired of seeing the same tired argument of 'they do get used' when I know how bad most of them are and see tons of games where they just sit there.

In any case, I'm not 'quitting', I'm just quitting these threads and if anyone wants to discuss native balance with me, I'm happy to weigh in, but I'm not making these threads anymore. Not enough people want it, and as I said at the offset if this wasn't something people wanted I wouldn't do it or support it.

@dansil92 Navajo are complete trash. Period. 12 range skirmishers with 11 attack. Nuf said. They are among the worst. The only good thing they have is the craftsmanship tech (20% faster gold gathering). The other techs are not worth it. Rattans are decent but if they were so busted they'd get used more. They've got a few issues in terms of their unit classing but whatever.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by scarm »

Peachrocks wrote:I've been searching for a game to actually sink my teeth into for years and it looks like I'm going to have to keep searching because so many games are about doing the same meta thing over and over and not being creative with game knowledge. Aoe3 has the potential to actually reward diversity and creative thinking yet it very rarely does. Some might say it does, but nowhere near enough as far as I'm concerned.

I think this is your main issue. Every game that has PVP (and even single player games tbh) has a meta. Certain Strats and Tactics or ways of playing the game will always be slightly more optimal than others, and at very high level every last bit counts, i.e. players will not do things that are even slightly inferior. If that is not the way you enjoy playing, then don't, and instead experiment, have fun and play the game the way you want to. I mean you could argue that games just aren't balanced well enough then, but i just don't think that in practice a game that has lots of options can ever be that balanced that no meta evolves. Also, in the NWC there were many games that were decided by very unorthodox methods, forts are being popularized again etc..
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

I'm not anti meta. I'm anti extremely shoehorned in meta because the alternatives are so complete trash you are wasting your time considering them. Most people are content with that. I am not.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Rikikipu »

I'd love to see natives played more, but to be honest, I think nootka are relatively fine. At least they are definitely in the high native tiers, so I'd buff the other natives instead.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Riotcoke »

Peachrocks wrote:I'm not anti meta. I'm anti extremely shoehorned in meta because the alternatives are so complete trash you are wasting your time considering them. Most people are content with that. I am not.

You can be a good player without the meta , look at aiz. If you're used to doing one thing you'd be better at it. Just because natives are an option , like rattans, they still won't be picked up by someone like rouga as he's just more used to playing in a certain way. You've even said it yourself before, saying that when you try the meta you're worse.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Peachrocks »

Wasn't referring to this game with that quote. At least nowhere near as much as many of the other things I've rejected.

You also know better than anyone that my 'anti meta' stuff isn't limited to natives. Also rouga is irrelevant to this point other than how he started the whole thought process. He's entitled to do whatever he wants and his knowledge of the meta is admirable.

Also sure, aoe3 is better than most but its still awfully robotic and like many games reward a particular skill set and other skill sets can just get screwed. I think what annoys me is how 'okay' with this people are, just like every other game. It's not just this. Worse is the fact statistically I can back up all my points but they keep getting hand waved when it really comes down to the fact people don't like what I'm trying to do for bias/taste reasons. It's like trying to argue the world is round to people who fervently believe it's flat. You can use numbers and whatever else to try and prove your point but because they don't want to believe it, they will never see reason.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by deleted_user0 »

The problem with nats is mostly the way its designed in the game. The fact that you need a tp, which is
Often oddly located and also given away by a symbol, that nats have a build limit which is often low, and the fact that often nat combos suck is more the reason that theyre not used than that the unitsor techs suck. On nilla nats were used more for various reasons. Smaller maps and smaller map pools, so more likely to get a good nat combo map as it would come up more. As well as nat alliance card being better and ranged inf being better. Tps costing 250w so less semi ff games.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by Dsy »

And they are mostly trash on cost effectivity.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by duckzilla »

I would love to see all natives strong enough such that at least French native strats are viable on every map with a native tp.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by edeholland »

The best buff we can give to natives is to hide the TP icon. It buffs the best element of natives: the surprise factor. I don't think a native rush should be viable outside of the surprise factor, which I why I'm reluctant to buff unit stats.
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Re: Nootka Thread

Post by thomasgreen6 »

edeholland wrote:The best buff we can give to natives is to hide the TP icon. It buffs the best element of natives: the surprise factor. I don't think a native rush should be viable outside of the surprise factor, which I why I'm reluctant to buff unit stats.

Idk, All things considered:

+ the native posts give tech upgrades (some viable some not)
+ natives don't cost pop space
+ surprise factor if you remove the native tp icon - some units also have high speed and siege which is good for a surprise rush
+/- a native post costs the same as a rax
- native units are often worse (maybe make them 10% worse then the equivalent units or something?)
- natives are map dependant ( a factor to consider in map pool selection)
- natives have a build limit
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