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Hey,

So since there's a slight majority who do favour 'some' degree of change, I'll continue these threads. Since the Nootka were brought up and considering how many heavy infantry melee natives there are, I thought I'd start with an interesting case in the Nootka who probably aren't as bad as the two covered previously but still in my opinion not that great. Note that I'm going to use the Elite version of the unit because of what I'm comparing to.

Elite Nootka Clubman

Cost: 85 food, 15 wood (131 villager seconds)
Cost w/ tech: 76 food, 13 wood (116 villager seconds)
HP: 250
Speed: 5
Resist: 0.10
Siege attack: 37
Hand attack: 12 (2x vs heavy cav, 1.5x coyote)
Limit: 15

Veteran Halberdier

Cost: 50 food, 70 coin (175.5 villager seconds)
HP: 200
Speed: 4
Resist: 0.10
Siege attack: 36
Hand attack: 25 (2x heavy cav, 1.5x coyote)

Veteran Pikeman

Cost: 40 food, 40 wood (127.5 villager seconds)
HP: 144
Speed: 5
Resist: 0.10
Siege attack: 38
Hand attack: 9 (5x heavy cav, 3.5x coyote)

I used both the Pikeman and Halberdier for a few reasons. The Nootka is closer in attacking stats to the Halberd BUT it has 5 speed so I put the Pikeman in there too, not to mention that Pikeman are the 5 speed anti-cavalry alternative, is available in age 2 and is closer in terms of cost. Needless to say one thing immediately stands out. The Nootka's attack is quite poor and unlike the Pikeman it doesn't have multipliers to make up for it. On the other hand, it has exceptionally high in HP given it's low villager second cost. However given it's role you usually want these types of units to be actually able to do something against cavalry, otherwise the units they are trying to protect will merely die anyway and 20 damage a hit (in age 2) simply doesn't cut it when their alternatives do around 40. Whether the base attack is boosted or multiplier is (perhaps even at the cost to some of it's HP), is up to the community. I don't mind either alternative.

Furthermore, melee heavy infantry in general is quite underused. Whether that particular can of worms should be addressed is something else entirely but for now making them not able to perform the basics of the role of anti cavalry is something I want to address.

Now for the techs.

Nootka Bark Wood Clothing
Cost: 125 wood, 125 coin
Villagers get 50%+ hitpoints.

This one is alright albeit a bit boring for civs not named France. You could make it slightly cheaper (say 100/100) but considering it stacks with great coat and all the other villager HP modifiers other civs get it might be better to leave it be. The tech could do something else entirely but considering that I only have a 60% majority in favour in the vote, let's avoid the radical.

Nootka Potlatch
Cost: 300 food, 300 coin (857 villager seconds)
Nootka Clubman cost -10% and train 50% faster.
This one is only worth it in extreme late game scenarios and more because of the potential instant train time. In terms of cost saving you would need train 57 Nootka clubman just for it to break even. Either lower the cost, improve the saving and remove the train time effect (I dislike instant train time as a mechanic in general and yes, some other natives have this effect, I'll get to that) or make it do something else entirely.

Loyal Nootka Warchief
Cost: 200 wood, 200 coin
Heroes can train a Nootka Warchief
This is a real odd ball. The base cost of the tech I think is too pricy and the unit itself is highly unusual but for the record, here we go.

Nootka War Chief
Cost: 200 food, 100 coin (404 villager seconds)
HP: 400
Resist: 0.4 ranged (yes really)
Speed: 5
Melee attack: 24 (2x vs heavy cav, 1.5x vs coyote)
Area of effect: 4 (yes really)
Siege attack: 60

Realistically it's just a huge version of the Nootka clubman though it doesn't seem worth it despite the unique feature of ranged resistance. It costs around 3 times the price (ignoring the base tech cost) while being only roughly twice as good on average. Some slightly cost tweaking might be enough to keep him relevant but again, opinions here would be interesting.

Thanks for your thoughts and contributions as always :).

Nurf Nootka Bark Wood Clothing!

I wouldn't change much, here. The Nootka Clubman is an absolute tank (as in, it is hard to kill and does lots of siege damage). That's about it.

what if the nootka war chief got an aura that supported at least all native post units?

Nootka's animation is hilarious, the only thing we should change is making the Flintstones club larger.

High damage is always nice but it looks like the best use of the nootka here apart from sieging buildings is to draw and absorb enemy attacks and to block cavalry from flanking the front line and engaging the skirmishers or siege. Having these 250HP with a little hand resist mixed into other heavy infantry or cavalry would be ideal as the enemy would want to engage and pick off the the units with the highest damage output per second. In big fights this is hard to do and so the nootka may sponge some damage away from other units. Given the low wood cost in the investment i would say that these could be compared to war dogs or disciples more actually.

In this role the nootka would be a good addition to low-HP cavalry units, say the German Uhlan or to snare enemy formations

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:High damage is always nice but it looks like the best use of the nootka here apart from sieging buildings is to draw and absorb enemy attacks and to block cavalry from flanking the front line and engaging the skirmishers or siege. Having these 250HP with a little hand resist mixed into other heavy infantry or cavalry would be ideal as the enemy would want to engage and pick off the the units with the highest damage output per second. In big fights this is hard to do and so the nootka may sponge some damage away from other units. Given the low wood cost in the investment i would say that these could be compared to war dogs or disciples more actually.

In this role the nootka would be a good addition to spongy cavalry units, say the German Uhlan or to snare enemy formations

Yeah I guess I can sorta see that and just hope passive native benefits (I.e build limits) are enough. I think they do need to do slightly more damage to cavalry or overall still. Either 12 damage overall (normally it’s 10) or an extra .5 on its cavalry and coyote multiplier.

@zoom What about the potlatch tech? 200/200 and make it 15% and remove faster training?

Nootka is underrated. Put them in cover mode and then bring in the pioneer nootka bark CDB!

war chiefshould get 600 HP, or at least an aura buff to units . 5% seems about right.

So WC getting a minor aura would certainly be interesting and make him a lot more viable and worthwhile building while his cost is still fairly prohibitive but does this take things too far? I think overall the feeling I got from the poll thread was that people want a little change but nothing drastic and honestly, for starters that's what I want too.

Also as for the unit itself, people seem to think they are underrated so perhaps passive benefits to natives as a whole (build limit at the least) are enough. The potlatch tech still probably needs to pay off faster then 57 clubman. The proposed 200/200 cost would make it 38 instead if left at 10% but whether we keep the instant train is something else.

Peachrocks wrote:

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:High damage is always nice but it looks like the best use of the nootka here apart from sieging buildings is to draw and absorb enemy attacks and to block cavalry from flanking the front line and engaging the skirmishers or siege. Having these 250HP with a little hand resist mixed into other heavy infantry or cavalry would be ideal as the enemy would want to engage and pick off the the units with the highest damage output per second. In big fights this is hard to do and so the nootka may sponge some damage away from other units. Given the low wood cost in the investment i would say that these could be compared to war dogs or disciples more actually.

In this role the nootka would be a good addition to spongy cavalry units, say the German Uhlan or to snare enemy formations

Yeah I guess I can sorta see that and just hope passive native benefits (I.e build limits) are enough. I think they do need to do slightly more damage to cavalry or overall still. Either 12 damage overall (normally it’s 10) or an extra .5 on its cavalry and coyote multiplier.

@zoom What about the potlatch tech? 200/200 and make it 15% and remove faster training?

It's probably the thing that makes most sense to buff. Still, if build limits are increased, in general, it might not be desirable.

zoom wrote:

Peachrocks wrote:

I_HaRRiiSoN_I wrote:High damage is always nice but it looks like the best use of the nootka here apart from sieging buildings is to draw and absorb enemy attacks and to block cavalry from flanking the front line and engaging the skirmishers or siege. Having these 250HP with a little hand resist mixed into other heavy infantry or cavalry would be ideal as the enemy would want to engage and pick off the the units with the highest damage output per second. In big fights this is hard to do and so the nootka may sponge some damage away from other units. Given the low wood cost in the investment i would say that these could be compared to war dogs or disciples more actually.

In this role the nootka would be a good addition to spongy cavalry units, say the German Uhlan or to snare enemy formations

Yeah I guess I can sorta see that and just hope passive native benefits (I.e build limits) are enough. I think they do need to do slightly more damage to cavalry or overall still. Either 12 damage overall (normally it’s 10) or an extra .5 on its cavalry and coyote multiplier.

@zoom What about the potlatch tech? 200/200 and make it 15% and remove faster training?

It's probably the thing that makes most sense to buff. Still, if build limits are increased, in general, it might not be desirable.

Warchief is also kinda bad so that definitely needs a change but anyway. Build limits or no, say we lower it to 200/200 and leave it at 10%, it'd still take 38 clubs just to break even, never mind come out ahead. That's still fairly long term and IMO not good enough.

True. Maybe just halve the Chief's cost.

I'd settle with that for the moment. I do believe the Nootka themselves need a very minor attack buff or improvement against cavalry but as I said at the very start, just ANYTHING would help and Nootka are not exactly the worst group.

So, concluding...
Nootka Potlatch
Becomes 200 food/200 coin instead of 300/300. 50% train speed is 30%. -10% cost remains.

Loyal Nootka Warchief
Becomes 100 wood/100 coin to research it.

Nootka War Chief
Unit cost changes to 100 food/50 coin. Sounds cheap for what you get but there is the base research cost and there's only one of him. He should be a bit of a badass. I'd settle for 120 food/50 coin or something.

why should he cost coin. it's a bit awkward. just do the same as mansabdar units, double the initial units cost. so 170f 30w.

umeu wrote:why should he cost coin. it's a bit awkward. just do the same as mansabdar units, double the initial units cost. so 170f 30w.

For no other reason then he always did. Changing it as such is fine.

Mansabdar Chieftain seems like the most logical approach

ye could be cool. the nootka chieftan boosts all other nootkas in combat by a bit.

Alright. So. Let's try again :). I particularly like the war chief buff because it helps the base Clubman as well who I think need a 'little' help. Though it could be too strong so I'll up the research cost a little.

Nootka Potlatch
Becomes 200 food/200 coin instead of 300/300. 50% train speed is 30%. -10% cost remains.

Loyal Nootka Warchief
Becomes 150 wood/150 coin to research it.

Nootka War Chief
Unit cost changes to 170 food/30 wood (double cost). Gives 10% HP/10% attack buff to all surrounding Nootka clubman. That's Mansabdar style, whether it should be 5%/5% or only 10% to one stat is up to everyone else.

@zoom Your thoughts if not too much trouble?

Nootka don't need to buffed, simply as they're still strong in siege and a much tankier version of a pikeman, so they fill a nice niche.

I think these native discussions are really poorly timed.
We're currently testing the EP7 and we already have too many changes. Furthermore, Zoi doesn't even have time to read the beta discussions so I think you should keep your native discussions for after the patch.
Anyway, buffing every single native is not going to happen, that would be too many changes, and nootkas are already one of the best native unit.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think these native discussions are really poorly timed.
We're currently testing the EP7 and we already have too many changes. Furthermore, Zoi doesn't even have time to read the beta discussions so I think you should keep your native discussions for after the patch.
Anyway, buffing every single native is not going to happen, that would be too many changes, and nootkas are already one of the best native unit.

Peachrocks started them after he made his account, so just after the lan. I think it's just coincidental.

I'm not putting forward these for EP7 otherwise they'd be in the notes and honestly, I don't want them there. This is going to take time and be delicate work. These are a long way off rest assured. It's coincidental.

[Armag] diarouga wrote:I think these native discussions are really poorly timed.
We're currently testing the EP7 and we already have too many changes. Furthermore, Zoi doesn't even have time to read the beta discussions so I think you should keep your native discussions for after the patch.
Anyway, buffing every single native is not going to happen, that would be too many changes, and nootkas are already one of the best native unit.

Sorry for the double. Yeah, this isn't for EP7. Also each change will be carefully tested and calculated against units with an intended goal. Ultimately on average natives will still be weaker than normal units most civs can get at the very least this is the intended goal. I really can't stress enough how bad most natives are. Nootka aren't the worst but they aren't the best either.

Furthermore Nootka themselves didn't get any change, I'm willing to believe their whole 'siege/tanky thing' might be enough to keep them relevant even if I personally disagree, I'd rather small changes first then buff more. Honestly, I'm sort against the Mansadbar Nootka change. It sounds nice for flavour and all, but it could cause too many problems but I'm willing to bend here and there in either direction.

I'd suggest reading bwinners otto guide for example or watching some games where people lame with nootka or huaminca. Those units high siege damage already makes laming with their respective treasures viable, and for otto for example going for a cheese nat rush is already one of the better option on no TP Maps where nootka or inca are present. Buffing Nootka literally risks turning Cascade range into Nootka Cheese Wonderland and might also create more fucked up Treasure lames.