Worst matchup in the game

Australia Hazza54321
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Hazza54321 »

Well you can kill tower if he goes forward, with early ashis and clubs then follow up with ashi nagi.
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by jesus3 »

Hazza54321 wrote:Well you can kill tower if he goes forward, with early ashis and clubs then follow up with ashi nagi.
you're probably right. I'm going to refer to Callen here, better players probably already have solutions for most of my struggles.
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Great Britain Riotcoke
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Riotcoke »

On RE at least Germany - Dutch on tp is a pretty laughable mu
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France Guigs
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Post by Guigs »

Dutch vs japan seems shit for dutch imo
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Riotcoke »

On coin start it's fine
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Germany amiggo1999
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by amiggo1999 »

Russia vs Brits on low Hunt map
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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

For the following civs :
China : Brit and Sioux
Japan : Aztec and Brit
India : ...
Aztec : Brit, Germany
Iro : ...
Sioux : Brit
Spain : Germany
Otto : Sioux
Dutch : Brit, Germany
France : ...
Germany : ...
Brit : Russia, India
Port : all
Russia : Iro
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:For the following civs :
China : Brit and Sioux
Japan : Aztec and Brit
India : ...
Aztec : Brit, Germany
Iro : ...
Sioux : Brit
Spain : Germany
Otto : Sioux
Dutch : Brit, Germany
France : ...
Germany : ...
Brit : Russia, India
Port : all
Russia : Iro
I believe that lists like these are way too oversimplified to mean anything. Sioux currently has a 29% win percentage vs Otto and from memory I recall that Sioux lost quite a few games vs Otto, even when starting cetan in base. There are just so many factors that determine a matchup that there is no definitive worst matchup in the game.

Ports is laughable. How can you say ports lose all matchups when you personally won with ports in the NWC?
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Astaroth »

Aside from map differences etc, another problem with rating how hard a MU is, is how different civs have very different approaches:

Eg many civs focus on just outbooming or outteching their opponent (FF), whereas others are more aggro focused. So often the MU comes down to the less eco civ doing one massive timing push on the more eco civ.

Is this MU now "hard" for the aggro civ because if the defender plays perfectly, he probably wins? Or is it "hard" for the defender, because one small slip up can cost you the game? Or is this MU even? Examples of this are Russia vs many civs or iro rush.

In short, it's easier to say that one MU is unfair, when both civs go for similar strats (both boom or both FF) yet one civ just gets blatantly more stuff. In other cases it could just be that one civ has the easier strat (Russian rush), but loses most games if the defender plays well.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Garja »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:For the following civs :
China : Brit and Sioux
Japan : Aztec and Brit
India : ...
Aztec : Brit, Germany
Iro : ...
Sioux : Brit
Spain : Germany
Otto : Sioux
Dutch : Brit, Germany
France : ...
Germany : ...
Brit : Russia, India
Port : all
Russia : Iro
I believe that lists like these are way too oversimplified to mean anything. Sioux currently has a 29% win percentage vs Otto and from memory I recall that Sioux lost quite a few games vs Otto, even when starting cetan in base. There are just so many factors that determine a matchup that there is no definitive worst matchup in the game.

Ports is laughable. How can you say ports lose all matchups when you personally won with ports in the NWC?
Half of those MUs are fine or even good. Don't bother reading that.
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France bwinner
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by bwinner »

For the following civs and to my knowledge (there is impossible MUs I don't know about for sure). I am only confident for Russia vs Otto and Otto vs Germany.
China : ...
Japan : ...
India : ...
Aztec : ...
Iro : maybe Brit but I am not sure
Sioux : ...
Spain : India, Germany
Otto : Sioux, Germany
Dutch : Germany
France : ...
Germany : ...
Brit : ...
Port : ...
Russia : Otto
[/quote]
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by deleted_user0 »

Lol. Most of the "worst" mus listed on this thread I think are not even that civ favoured.

All the worst mus are probably spain/port (land)/aztec vs the strongest civs as china/germ/india. As simple as that. Some combinations of those.
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Kaiserklein »

Spain vs ger isn't anywhere near the worst match up in the game...

Anyway, the worst MU I can think of off the top of my head would be russia vs otto I think. Still don't think beating the tower ff is possible, especially since if russia ff itself, otto can also revolt.
Or maybe sioux vs otto on most maps. Or port vs china actually
somppukunkku wrote:
deleted_user wrote:I want to say Spain vs Dutch, bad for Dutch
Its only cause most of the people make 5 banks they can't defend instead of max 3 and actually hold the push....
Nah spain doesn't even have to be aggressive. If you 3 banks ff they can contain you with spanish gold and stage (if available) and win easily
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by deleted_user0 »

Spanish gold isn't enough vs dutch. Stage is different story most of the dutch mus.
Dutch can 1000w and 5 banks if no aggro.
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Kaiserklein »

Spanish gold is enough if dutch went for a low eco ff. For the record spanish gold is worth approx 2 banks.
Plus it's not just about the eco, also about how many resources dutch has in base before having to push out. And you also have 2 falcs and rods.
Also you can stagecoach on any tp map kinda, just it's not as good on maps like kamchatka or adirondacks. No tp maps are obviously another story.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by deleted_user0 »

Same story w/ brit, spain etc etc very very bad for dutch but I swear none of you could beat raph even a few times in those MUs.
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Kaiserklein »

Raphael himself said it's spain favoured iirc. And I doubt he'd claim brit's don't beat dutch...
From what I've seen you just play these mus wrong.
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Hazza54321 »

Id love to watch your spain beat his dutch ktard
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Kaiserklein »

Can do if he's not afk
You seriously think it's dutch favoured too lol?
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by deleted_user0 »

I think if played optimal, maybe with even some layers of walls, dutch wins because it's just better civ overall with more eco potential and better army.
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Italy Garja
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Garja »

Dutch better civ overall than Brits? If anything Dutch is more practical because auto unit ups and bank autogathering. But overall Brits is better.
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Kaiserklein »

I think he meant spain. Either way which civ is "stronger overall" just doesn't matter at all... It's about which tools you have to counter your opponent's civ. For example lbs are useless in some match ups but they're great vs dutch. 2 falcs are also more relevant vs dutch. Spain's aggro ff is not fast enough to hurt a civ like fr or ger usually, but it's fast enough to hurt dutch and prevent them from going greedy. And so on
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by Guigs »

somppukunkku wrote:Same story w/ brit, spain etc etc very very bad for dutch but I swear none of you could beat raph even a few times in those MUs.
Rapha is just next level honestly. When i watch him play dutch vs brits he makes it dutch favoured
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

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Post by sebnan12 »

worst mu is sioux vs ports on amazonia if the port player walls his side in age 1 with sending 300 wood and then takes sea gl wining that
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Re: Worst matchup in the game

Post by thomasgreen6 »

sebnan12 wrote:worst mu is sioux vs ports on amazonia if the port player walls his side in age 1 with sending 300 wood and then takes sea gl wining that
And yet Duck_Daniels still plays on re
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