Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Should there be map vetoes in upcoming major tournaments?

Yes
20
65%
No
11
35%
 
Total votes: 31

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Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
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Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Hey everyone,

The tournament staff would like to make an inquiry into map vetoes in tournaments. Map vetoes were present during big tournaments in the past, most notably the NWC LAN, but they have been omitted during smaller tournaments like TWC for simplicity's sake. I personally believe that map vetoes add another element of strategy to a series and that map vetoes are beneficial to the tournament. Other tournament admins deem map vetoes an arbitrary means of carving out an already small and tailor-made map pool.

We would like to hear your opinion about this issue. Please vote in the poll and leave a post stating your reasoning. You can change your vote at any time. The results of the poll are non-binding. Your help is greatly appreciated!

Civilization vetoes are not being considered at the current time and will most likely not be considered in the future, with the exception of minor tournaments that have arbitrary civilization rules.
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Great Britain I_HaRRiiSoN_I
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by I_HaRRiiSoN_I »

Yes there should be map vetoes. It benefits viewers as it adds to the map variety. In tournaments with RO32/16 you can watch countless games on 1 map where as the final map in a BO7/9 may never get played. On the reverse there could be a home map system where players pick a map each to play the first 2 ( or 4 ) games of a set before returning to a standard map set to end off with. One thing i'm cautious with map vetoes is one player could veto every water map which happened often in the NWC which then lead to 5 standard land maps which in some cases did not lead to much variety. ( I guess thats why a player could pick a map and veto a map)

Simply put static maps sets in early rounds in large tournaments get tedious quick.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Riotcoke »

Is the map vetoing going to be done in the scheduling threads like it was for the NWC qualifiers or just before the series starts.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Riotcoke wrote:Is the map vetoing going to be done in the scheduling threads like it was for the NWC qualifiers or just before the series starts.
Most likely in the scheduling thread to allow players to prepare. We don't want players preparing strategies for maps only for said maps to be vetoed right before the series. Which option has your preference?
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

From a viewer point of view I'd like to see diversity in the map pool. Map vetoes allow one player to avoid water maps or non standard maps which is sad. And the winner should have proved his strength on different types of maps too if he wants to claim he is the best player.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Astaroth »

I am against map vetoes. The winner should be able to triumph on all kinds of maps. Especially because the tournament pool is already fairly limited anyway.

If lack of map diversity is a problem, there are other alternatives:

You could vary the order in which maps are plqyed from round to round, making sure that a map which might not be played often due to it being map5 in a BO5 could be map1 in the following round.

Another option is to add some sort of "map wheel": eg you have a pool of 10 maps. In a BO5, lets say map1, map3 and map5 are set from the beginning (eg baja california, Florida, hudson bay or whatever), wherras map 2 and map4 are "random map" chosen by the "map wheel" from the pool of 10 maps right before the series.

This means that one series could be map A-map X-map B, the next one map A-map Z-map B etc.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

@Astaroth :
Or there could be a different map pool for each round of the tournament for maximal diversity.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Riotcoke »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Is the map vetoing going to be done in the scheduling threads like it was for the NWC qualifiers or just before the series starts.
Most likely in the scheduling thread to allow players to prepare. We don't want players preparing strategies for maps only for said maps to be vetoed right before the series. Which option has your preference?
Scheduling works better, especially seeing as how long civ picking can already take.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

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Post by Lukas_L99 »

Is there any good argument against it?
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Riotcoke »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Is there any good argument against it?
It's extra admin work i guess.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Cometk »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Is there any good argument against it?
Map vetoes provide irregularity to a series that make it harder to practice for an individual match. Because you don't know what map your opponent will veto, which might thus invalidate any practiced strategy you might've had for said map, and your own veto might hinge on who your opponent is, map vetoes to me seem more obfuscatory and confusing than they do additive and dynamic. Mix in that it's hard for administration to regulate when players issue their vetoes and it's possible you might not know what the actual map pool will be until hours before your series. It's a superfluous process of reduction.

Map vetoes better serve to homogenize a map pool because players tend to veto non-standard maps. The point of "map diversity" is better solved by having a rotating map pool than by having map vetoes, in my opinion.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by flontier »

Thats pretty tough to answer, veto can be strategically interesting or not, add diversity or not.
Because it just depends of the base map pool.

He was ok in NWC i think, mainly for viewer because the base map pool was very diversified (like you cant avoid to play atleast one map with water potential) so it did add some slight map pool differences between series of a same round.
But then map pool was maybe too diversified with map like deccan (too much unstandard) or NE and that was bad imo because we saw always the same mu on same map (like india russia on thar or always india on deccan).

So can be good, can not be...
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

The issue with Vetoes is that you can veto a type of map. For instance, kynesie wouldn't have the opportunity to play water maps. That's why alternative picks and vetoes is the best solution imo.

Also remove the uninteresting maps like Thar Desert where only 3 civs are viable, we shouldn't have to waste a veto on these.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
Lukas_L99 wrote:Is there any good argument against it?
Map vetoes provide irregularity to a series that make it harder to practice for an individual match. Because you don't know what map your opponent will veto, which might thus invalidate any practiced strategy you might've had for said map, and your own veto might hinge on who your opponent is, map vetoes to me seem more obfuscatory and confusing than they do additive and dynamic. Mix in that it's hard for administration to regulate when players issue their vetoes and it's possible you might not know what the actual map pool will be until hours before your series. It's a superfluous process of reduction.

Map vetoes better serve to homogenize a map pool because players tend to veto non-standard maps. The point of "map diversity" is better solved by having a rotating map pool than by having map vetoes, in my opinion.
The issue with map diversity is that some maps are simply not competitive and unfortunately the admins and the map team disagree on this. Thus, we have to play on non-competitive maps in tournaments for diversity's sake. Veto would solve that problem.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

There will be no more no-tp maps in future tournaments for the foreseeable future due to the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for your input!
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by EAGLEMUT »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:There will be no more no-tp maps in future tournaments for the foreseeable future due to the reasons you mentioned.
Probably shouldn't do that on EP7, or I guess re-evaluate what a "no-tp" map is, with native settlements awarding XP trickles.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Rikikipu »

[Armag] diarouga wrote: The issue with map diversity is that some maps are simply not competitive and unfortunately the admins and the map team disagree on this. Thus, we have to play on non-competitive maps in tournaments for diversity's sake. Veto would solve that problem.
I'd like to rectify that statement. We agree on the problem : there is an issue with no-tp maps.
We disagree about the action to take though : you simply want to remove them from the pool whereas we'd like to see if we can improve the balance on this type of maps too. Fortunately with the xp trickle change from native tps, the philosophy seems to have evolved around this topic and we see a first iteration that directly target no-tp maps. Let's hope we continue to that direction and follow the improvments to have a diverse map pool
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

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Post by Garja »

You guys are too indoctrinated with the idea that civs like Germans can't win games without a TP. They should force you to watch 8h/day of German games on no-tp maps.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

EAGLEMUT wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:There will be no more no-tp maps in future tournaments for the foreseeable future due to the reasons you mentioned.
Probably shouldn't do that on EP7, or I guess re-evaluate what a "no-tp" map is, with native settlements awarding XP trickles.
That change is garbage and I fully expect to see it reverted sooner rather than later.

Regardless of my personal opinion, it would be unwise to have these radically changed 'no-tp' maps be a part of a major tournament, since there has been little to no testing.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Kaiserklein »

Le Hussard sur le toit wrote:From a viewer point of view I'd like to see diversity in the map pool. Map vetoes allow one player to avoid water maps or non standard maps which is sad. And the winner should have proved his strength on different types of maps too if he wants to claim he is the best player.
If done well, vetoes should bring more diversity, as in every series of a round have different map pools, which is nice for the viewers.
I get the point about being able to veto non standard maps, but I think there's an easy way to counter that. You can just add more non standard maps to the pool, and give players more vetoes. Say, if you have 9 maps for BO5, 4/5 of them being rather non standard, and each player can veto 2 maps, you'll probably end up having a diversity of map pool in a same round, and a mix of standard and non standard maps.

Garja wrote:You guys are too indoctrinated with the idea that civs like Germans can't win games without a TP. They should force you to watch 8h/day of German games on no-tp maps.
Ger is definitely playable on no tp maps, though below average. The point is no one will pick ger on no tp in a tourney. It's always the same 4-5 civs at best, when it's not only india/russia.

Mr_Bramboy wrote:There will be no more no-tp maps in future tournaments for the foreseeable future due to the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for your input!
That's a bit drastic imo. Having 1 no tp map in a series sounds okay, it's just that we usually had at least 2 of them in a bo7 or so. Especially with the new EP, which will probably make more civs viable on no tp (even though I don't like the xp trickle thing).
Looking at twc tourney, we basically didn't see any aztecs because there was only tp maps. Imagine with normal rules, and without no tp maps, probably no one will pick aztecs (even if it's buffed next ep, it's just not very popular I guess). Same goes for some other civs to some extent.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Ger is definitely playable on no tp maps, though below average. The point is no one will pick ger on no tp in a tourney. It's always the same 4-5 civs at best, when it's not only india/russia.
Yep none would do in a tourney cause in a tourney you have to play multiple civs anyway so it makes sense to distribute them according to the map pool.
However if you could only enter tourneys with one civ then you would beforced to play on that.
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Re: Map Vetoes in Tournaments

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
EAGLEMUT wrote:
Mr_Bramboy wrote:There will be no more no-tp maps in future tournaments for the foreseeable future due to the reasons you mentioned.
Probably shouldn't do that on EP7, or I guess re-evaluate what a "no-tp" map is, with native settlements awarding XP trickles.
That change is garbage and I fully expect to see it reverted sooner rather than later.

Regardless of my personal opinion, it would be unwise to have these radically changed 'no-tp' maps be a part of a major tournament, since there has been little to no testing.
+1
That change is just awful. I cannot believe EP went for this but didn't fix the crates because it is too controversial.

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