German vs jap

[deleted_user0]

Is there a record? It's much harder to analyze from your POV only.

[Kaiserklein]

Nah

[Mitoe]

3 SW 2 SW is a good colonial mix-up option instead of hard rushing. Can fb, make 5-10 pikes to siege and hope he overreacts. Add a 2nd rax once you send 2 SW and mass bow/pike while sieging shrines then either push or age depending on what he's doing. If he rushes the rax you can give it up and build one at home. It's only 200w, you can kill more shrines in the meantime, and he shipped military instead of units.

I think the best option is 3 SW 700w FF (gather coin to age) and siege shrines with skirm/uhlan and some WW in Fortress though. If you scout a rush you can just ship 8 bow instead of 700w and buy wood for a rax + houses with your coin and then age with 700c. This is harder to scout on the most recent version of EP though because you can't rely on checking his deck and have to do it with your explorer, which is far less reliable--so the build may not be as successful anymore. Basically siege shrines and mass units, keep scouting or poking occasionally to see what he's up to. If he's gone really greedy you can probably just kill him.

The real problem is if he plays it right he can be up safely with a decent eco, and then it's a bit difficult to play. Depending on the composition it may be worth it to send 1000w for arsenal upgrades like CIR and RCC, but usually best to just ship unit shipments and siege shrines / pressure until he gives you an opening. Raiding gold mines is important vs Japan as well.


In my experience stagecoach rarely works unless he just sits back and does nothing all game long. You might be able to get it in age 2 if you go 700w 600w 8 bow and then 3 SW later in the game.

[Sputnik]

What I'm saying is that they'll just shrine really close to their base so you can't pike the shrines down

Okay let me try to explain what i was trying to say. I watched the game between you and turk, he aged at 08:43 and i think its a bit inflated because of the 2 vill tres. He did 5 ashi 5 clubs and took down your tp while having 50 pop or so and shipped 600 wood to keep shrining. Think about arkansas and hunt spawn in general. He can do additional 2 shrines next to his base which is hard to siege i agree. But after that he has to go out with his shrines and the thing is, his main eco option are not shrines but his vills though his population count will not be high as usual japan play. He will keep making units and vills as you expect and if you can kill any additional shrines, that is even a bigger gain for you than usual. I disagree with siegeing and containing stuff that germ used to do in age 3 against japan because in mid game, wood income won't be an issue while in early game 120 wood can be huge. So, if you fend off his push to your tp with xbow start, it is a win. If he sees that and starts yumi i think you can outmass in early age 2 and add pikes after, to damage his pop space. This needs testing because i haven't played germ for a while but i feel like its doable since you are still a faster civ although not as fast as it used to be.
Then, i think you can still age before him while doing all those things and this should delay his follow up or his age 2 play against that quite a bit. Then stagecoaching or containing can again be an option.

Sure, they don't have the greatest japanese eco, but they do get more eco than ger with just market ups, 4v and the few shrines.

Well japan is cutting corners in order to gain some tempo advantage with that build. We know that japan always outscales germany so you have to also cut corners and go to its weakspot i feel to negate their play. At least in theory, this make sense imo.

[bepsi]

I'm interested in the general build for the lowbob low eco Japanese style Kaiser is referring to. Is it a reference to the 2 vill/3 fishing boat opening Tabben does or the all in rush that BSOP liked to do or something new all together?

[Astaroth]

I think Kaiser means turk's build: 2v or3 boats, 600w, jap consulate, rather low shrine count, in base rax, market ups. The build is flexible and profits from a slight eco lead over most other civs plus strong units in late age2.

[ShinkuroYukinari]

If you roll a map with Renegado or similar, consider going for a Mercenary Semi FF. This is one of those cases where you can legit pull it off, since Japan takes a bit to get going and will most likely prioritise Ashigaru due to your inherent Uhlan spam.
Get Age 3, ship Jaegers, demolish his Ashigaru stack.

[zoom]

Without getting in over my head, with details, it's the same old: Boom (and pressure, tactically, including denying shrining), exploit Stagecoach (especially on EP7), FI, or just rush. Go for the killing blow at the opportune time, and don't let Japanese get too comfortable, without overcommitting.

I recall watching a good example of how not to play (strategically), recently. I'll try to find it, on Twitch, once I get home, tomorrow. I do think it's a relatively difficult MU for Germans, though.

The game at 01:26:00 is the one I was thinking of.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/525025556? ... &sort=time

[zoom]

Without getting in over my head, with details, it's the same old: Boom (and pressure, tactically, including denying shrining), exploit Stagecoach (especially on EP7), FI, or just rush. Go for the killing blow at the opportune time, and don't let Japanese get too comfortable, without overcommitting.

Like I just explained, you can't deny the shrining. Booming is basically shipping 3 SW, which you obviously do. Stagecoach is not possible on arkansas when japan goes low eco like that (he just masses more than you early on). Rushing doesn't work as he gets 5 yumis + 5 clubs/4 shinobis at 5:30 lol. Fi can work as a surprise but obviously japan can just also go up and have a superior industrial.
Pressuring without overcommitting is exactly what I did in that game. It's not enough, you end up losing because you can't win a single fight vs in base yumis, and he never needs mapcontrol. Like I said the only way would be cannons asap I guess, and hope he just keeps going for yumis in base.

IIRC there was a good window of time, where you could have taken the TPs and researched Stagecoach – certainly not in the earliest portion of the game, though (that were a poor risk to take, versus such a low-eco build, regardless). Japanese going low-eco is typically a good sign for its opponent, in the longer run, too. A rush should (in both senses of the word) indeed be holdable with that build-order, which sets Japanese back a ton; again another good sign for the opponent – especially if it's opened with overpowered shipments such as 3 Settler Wagons. Like I mentioned it's probably best to not go all-in, most of the time (especially as Germans). On the other hand, slightly stronger Crossbowmen could be relevant, in early Colonial, in this match-up. An FI has potential too, I think.

I agree you can't push into the base of a largely unharassed Japanese with a fortified base; In fact, that's about the last thing I would (let alone have) recommend(ed). The point is that you don't have to, if you keep some sort of pressure on, which in my opinion, at the time that the game was played, you failed to do well enough at, playing into the opponent's hands. Of course Japanese doesn't need map-control if its Shrines aren't being denied, or a freely available Trade Route utilized by its opponent. Ultimately, you pushed about a minute too late, hitting an anti-timing. Your push most likely would have won you the game, then and there, if it had come even 30 seconds earlier.

In the event that other players agree that Japanese should be nerfed, it will be. Let's not pretend that you didn't misplay this particular game, in any way significant to its outcome, though.

[aligator92]

In the event that other players agree that Japanese should be nerfed, it will be. Let's not pretend that you didn't misplay this particular game, in any way significant to its outcome, though.

I agree it should be nerfed. Here is why: viewtopic.php?f=314&t=16973&hilit=hate+japan

spoiler

Warning: cheap plug

[Sargsyan]

In the event that other players agree that Japanese should be nerfed, it will be. Let's not pretend that you didn't misplay this particular game, in any way significant to its outcome, though.

I agree it should be nerfed. Here is why: viewtopic.php?f=314&t=16973&hilit=hate+japan

spoiler

Warning: cheap plug

ego post

[Kaiserklein]

Okay let me try to explain what i was trying to say. I watched the game between you and turk, he aged at 08:43 and i think its a bit inflated because of the 2 vill tres. He did 5 ashi 5 clubs and took down your tp while having 50 pop or so and shipped 600 wood to keep shrining. Think about arkansas and hunt spawn in general. He can do additional 2 shrines next to his base which is hard to siege i agree. But after that he has to go out with his shrines and the thing is, his main eco option are not shrines but his vills though his population count will not be high as usual japan play.

On arkansas you can get your big shrine + 6 shrines close enough to your base. That's probably more than what turk shrines in the early game.

He will keep making units and vills as you expect and if you can kill any additional shrines, that is even a bigger gain for you than usual. I disagree with siegeing and containing stuff that germ used to do in age 3 against japan because in mid game, wood income won't be an issue while in early game 120 wood can be huge. So, if you fend off his push to your tp with xbow start, it is a win. If he sees that and starts yumi i think you can outmass in early age 2 and add pikes after, to damage his pop space. This needs testing because i haven't played germ for a while but i feel like its doable since you are still a faster civ although not as fast as it used to be.

Obviously he can scout my rax and open yumis. Then my bows are essentially useless. And again, pikes won't be able to siege shrines down since he will defend them with yumis. So what's the point? Also I don't outmass early on unless I go really aggressive (which doesn't work vs that style), plus yumis can jute kite anyway so I just wont take good trades.
I mean you're basically just suggesting xbow pike lol. It's not like I haven't tried tower rush and all sorts of stuff in that mu. It just doesn't work.

Then, i think you can still age before him while doing all those things and this should delay his follow up or his age 2 play against that quite a bit. Then stagecoaching or containing can again be an option.

It delays myself more than it delays him, because he can just make less units and be safe. Lower amounts of yumis in base can hold xbows just fine, it's just not a good trade for germany. Then if it goes to fortress, you also end up having useless xbows while he has upped yumis.

Well japan is cutting corners in order to gain some tempo advantage with that build. We know that japan always outscales germany so you have to also cut corners and go to its weakspot i feel to negate their play. At least in theory, this make sense imo.

What weak spot? And what more should I cut?

[Kaiserklein]

IIRC there was a good window of time, where you could have taken the TPs and researched Stagecoach – certainly not in the earliest portion of the game, though (that were a poor risk to take, versus such a low-eco build, regardless). Japanese going low-eco is typically a good sign for its opponent, in the longer run, too. A rush should (in both senses of the word) indeed be holdable with that build-order, which sets Japanese back a ton; again another good sign for the opponent – especially if it's opened with overpowered shipments such as 3 Settler Wagons. Like I mentioned it's probably best to not go all-in, most of the time (especially as Germans). On the other hand, slightly stronger Crossbowmen could be relevant, in early Colonial, in this match-up. An FI has potential too, I think.

There was literally no window to get stagecoach. I wouldn't get enough military to hold the tps while spending resources on that. He can just club down the closest tp and I'm sure I can't do anything about it.
Crossbows are stronger but still no match for yumis, and can still get caught by ashis+clubs too.
FI is cheese and just doesn't work if japan adapts.

I agree you can't push into the base of a largely unharassed Japanese with a fortified base; In fact, that's about the last thing I would (let alone have) recommend(ed). The point is that you don't have to, if you keep some sort of pressure on, which in my opinion, at the time that the game was played, you failed to do well enough at, playing into the opponent's hands. Of course Japanese doesn't need map-control if its Shrines aren't being denied, or a freely available Trade Route utilized by its opponent. Ultimately, you pushed about a minute too late, hitting an anti-timing. Your push most likely would have won you the game, then and there, if it had come even 30 seconds earlier.

Of course you have to push the base somehow, since you can't contain japan (no shrines on the map, no need of natural resources), and since stagecoach won't work on that map. Say it would be hudson bay with 3 tps in the middle, it could be a different story.
I kept pressuring all the time lol. But when he gets way of the bow you simply can't poke. You need cannons like I said, and I know I added them kind of late, but again it's hard to know when to add them and it's risky.
What push would have won me the game? The falcs?

In the event that other players agree that Japanese should be nerfed, it will be. Let's not pretend that you didn't misplay this particular game, in any way significant to its outcome, though.

I never play perfectly, obviously I made some mistakes. I don't think I made a lot of them though, and I really don't know that I could have won that game if I played better anyway.
I wasn't even arguing for a jap nerf here, just saying it's imo really hard to win that mu on that kind of map. Then yeah I personally believe japan will need some nerf to make up for the deck scouting fix. We'll see

[harcha]

not commenting on the game in particular but on peoples attitudes: at some point when you're considering optimal plays FI is no longer cheese

[Kaiserklein]

It's cheese because it only works as a surprise.