OTTO OR IRO?

[fei123456]

I dont see how your conclusion has anything to do with my suggestion.

Whats so hard to understand? We didnt want every match of the tourney to begin with otto iro mirror and otto mirror, so we banned iros and otto. Now in fact there are many more viable MUs and the tourney is overall better.
Your suggestion doesnt accomplish nothing as its implicit that everyone would automatically pick iro and otto for the first 2 games.

but sioux can beat otto and iro easily

[britishmusketeer]

Whats so hard to understand? We didnt want every match of the tourney to begin with otto iro mirror and otto mirror, so we banned iros and otto. Now in fact there are many more viable MUs and the tourney is overall better.
Your suggestion doesnt accomplish nothing as its implicit that everyone would automatically pick iro and otto for the first 2 games.

but sioux can beat otto and iro easily

I dont know about otto, but Sioux cant beat iro.

[mongobillione]

They can, its not that they favorized... But its same like russ can beat france.. Its neither hopeless nor its a stupid mu

[mongobillione]

Iro is superfast but so is sioux with 1 or 2 lucky raids u can change game

[Garja]

sioux shouldn't be able to beat iro at all

[fei123456]

sioux shouldn''t be able to beat iro at all

but according to eso stat sioux has 52% ratio vs iro
iro units costs too much food, giving sioux more chance to raid. tomahawk are worse than common musk: if iro train more toma they lose to br. if they train more aenna they lose to ar dog soldier.

[adderbrain5]

It''s very simple, just chop for another TP and hunting dogs then make only aenna while shipping the above (can be either 7 aenna or 6 toma depending on what they have). BB optional in case you need anti cav. Push around 7 min then age up from 600g and optionally age up again from 1200res which you should always ship first in fortress.?
You have so many shipments and your shipments are so OP (4 kanya, 6 kanya, 5 cuir for 500g, 1200 res, etc), it''s impossible to lose. The timing alone is tough to hold for most civs and they won''t even be thinking about aging up after. Then bam you suddenly hit fortress... They struggle to follow you up in which case you go industrial and ram 4 cannons in their face, or they stay colonial in which case you don''t even lose map control and just win with upped kanya + FP.

in all my Iroquois games which is a lot because that''s my main I''ve never gone into industrial and I''ve never shipped cannons Nor have I ever shipped the 1200 crates. thanks for the idea I''ll try it

[adderbrain5]

There arent quite a few ways to beat them. Iro and Otto should always win if the other player is not playing them.

I think jap beats iro actually.. And i always do nice as dutch vs otto. But thats not the point.. I think sioux and japs are same lame..

A really good jobs player once beat me a few times but for the most part jabs vs Iroquois: LOL

[adderbrain5]

but sioux can beat otto and iro easily

I dont know about otto, but Sioux cant beat iro.

sioux canwin versus Iroquois the 10 pistoleros shipment is especially hard to deal with as Iro. Suit in my experience Iroquois cant really turtle them out because they just keep sending with after wave of clubs and bows along with a little bit of calve and it just overwhelms you I guess youre only good option then is to all in them.

[adderbrain5]

I dont know about otto, but Sioux cant beat iro.

sioux canwin versus Iroquois the 10 pistoleros shipment is especially hard to deal with as Iro. Suit in my experience Iroquois cant really turtle them out because they just keep sending with after wave of clubs and bows along with a little bit of calve and it just overwhelms you I guess youre only good option then is to all in them. Because of the war chief you pretty much have to build your war hut at base as soon as it pops because even if you get high chief, train a bunch of wolves and convert a bunch of guardians you still cant kill his chief before he gets the. Travoisin my experience the wagon cant build with the war chief chasing it]

[mongobillione]

sioux shouldnt be able to beat iro at all

but according to eso stat sioux has 52% ratio vs iro
iro units costs too much food, giving sioux more chance to raid. tomahawk are worse than common musk: if iro train more toma they lose to br. if they train more aenna they lose to ar dog soldier.

+1

[Garja]

Doesn't mean they should win. I also lost several times as iro but it's just because I was playing bad. Just either rush strongly or camp with your army on your vills till you have a big mass, either with a colonial timing or age3 timing.
Tomahawk are fine btw they have more hp than normal musks, and they have more meele damage than musks (vs cav atleast). Also aenna rape br and are not that bad vs hand cav. You guys probably never saw a properly played iro.

[mongobillione]

Theres that start gap where iro has a larger mass than sioux but still sioux can get rid of it.. And after that moment sioux do nice

[[Armag] diarouga]

sioux shouldnt be able to beat iro at all

but according to eso stat sioux has 52% ratio vs iro
iro units costs too much food, giving sioux more chance to raid. tomahawk are worse than common musk: if iro train more toma they lose to br. if they train more aenna they lose to ar dog soldier.

I hate people quoting elo stats, thats nothing lol, France have 44% vs Russia, otto have like 40% vs sioux lol.
People not playing a civ the right way doesnt show that the civ is bad.
Piroshiki always do a 12v ff, yuza always does a french gren ff lol, doesnt mean spain and france are weak

[Garja]

Theres that start gap where iro has a larger mass than sioux but still sioux can get rid of it.. And after that moment sioux do nice

No, that''s the point. Sioux never becomes better than iro. Iro just have more than sioux in everything: more eco, better units, better lategame. The reason why people thinks sioux stand a chance is because they keep watching iro players getting outplayed by raids or running their starting army into sioux base and losing it (which btw shouldn''t happen).

[deleted_user0]

The longer the game goes on for iro, the better they get. With warchief bonus and 3 inf upgrades and wardance they basically have guard units in late colonial. Which is around 12 min. Aenna are really op, and if you get the ramge upgrade, they will demolish wakina. The raids are annoying but walls around trees and hunts can fix that.

A strong 8 min timing with like 36 tomas 12 aenna should demolish most sioux plays.

[adderbrain5]

On the map like Great Plains with native post upgrades I think Sioux wins. Dog soldiers fast spawning with RR behind them mixed with some Cheyenne to deal with whatever cav Iro can manage is gg for iro

[deleted_user0]

Iro would or should never make handcav vs sioux, they have the superior infantry and mass. Also sioux cant afford the upgrades early, when it matters, so that doesnt work. That said, gp is a good map for sioux in this mu. Trees generally poor, after the ones in base are gone. And open map favors cav in engagements. The small rush distance is both a pro and con, because the iro can defend in base and still cross map asap, but at the same time sioux can raid and be back in time to defend a push

[adderbrain5]

Lol brits is nowhere near iro even with op hunts. Iro just does the usual stuff and can be 10 vills behind brits but with better units and map control. Not to mention they can just semi ff.
Aztecs can''t win at all, it''s not even close. Sioux doesn''t win too but ofc if you play in their hand they can do the cat and mice play which seems tricky but actually isn''t.
Again, none really has played iro enough to say.

I''ve definitely played a lot of Iroquois probably more than anyone in years but I''d have to check the stats. But the account I play is a MS lol so I haven''t gotten to do very many pro games

[adderbrain5]

yeah yurashic is right, also portuguese musket rush should beat iro, as you can build a forward tc and spam muskets into his base gg ez, i also think that russia priest rush beat otto on fair maps and if you micro correctly, and iro don''t get factories so they arnt that good, and they dont have halberdiers so they really struggle against the top civs. i think ottos only hope vs french for example is to fast imp or just get rekt by their pikemen mass

haha but any time I play vs ports I scout like a mofo and hit his TC foundation with town destroyer generally so lol that strat

[adderbrain5]

Iro would or should never make handcav vs sioux, they have the superior infantry and mass. Also sioux cant afford the upgrades early, when it matters, so that doesnt work. That said, gp is a good map for sioux in this mu. Trees generally poor, after the ones in base are gone. And open map favors cav in engagements. The small rush distance is both a pro and con, because the iro can defend in base and still cross map asap, but at the same time sioux can raid and be back in time to defend a push

yall forgetting them pistoleros man. They hold an Iroquois colonial push pretty darn good

[adderbrain5]

Fuck ports man they don't even deserve respect. Nothing lame about it either. Ur lame. Ports getting an extra TC is lame and CM is lame. BTW see my old thread.

[SaDe]

I said only allow iro mirrors, otto mirrors and iro vs otto. Thatd improve the game for viewers, because even more different match ups to watch (which are fun and interesting according to you guys). If a player doesnt want to play the match ups then the other player is going to be forced to switch civs since other mus arent allowed.

Well for all tourney organizers that was not the case. Having every first 2 games of each match booked by iro and otto is not something that enhance the tourney value, especially for viewers.

What if you allowed both player to veto two civs of the opposition and 1 or 2 maps from a set map pool before their series?