Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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China fei123456
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Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by fei123456 »

To balance German in EP, they now have:

Extreme bad cavalry, spending 50f 100g for a 180HP melee cav is quite fun;
Extreme slow shipments, the 1st shipment may not arrive at 3:00, which is ridiculous;
Awful economy, bad range cav unit, no musketeer units, etc.

All the reason is they have 2/3/4 free uhlans for every shipments. Free uhlans are OP so we have to nerf... something else.
So why don't we change the free uhlan number to 1/2/3, and give the uhlan stats and shipment rates back? Not every player wanna play such a dumb civ just for those free uhlans.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by chronique »

Usually reduce the civ specificity is not the best way to balance the game.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by fei123456 »

chronique wrote:Usually reduce the civ specificity is not the best way to balance the game.
But German is already quite "special" in 8 euro civs.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Yeah reducing the amount of free uhlans would have been an easier way to balance the civ. And it has been discussed a billion times, but instead we get weird shit because apparently design is more important than balance
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by chronique »

They are not special at all to me. My opinion is more the opposite, one of the most standar civ, they have basicly the same ff/semiff, age 3 compo than fr (same merc and same upg). The only specific stuff is this free uhlan.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Ive stated many times weve been going the wrong way about it. Cba to get into it now.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Shikari »

Slow down of shipment change was so.dumb. now you don't have a shipment ready when you reach fortress of you do 3sw and 700coin on a to start.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Kawapasaka »

-1 Uhlan in all ages sounds like a way bigger nerf than anything else Ger has received so far, is it not?
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by Mitoe »

I really really hate the idea of reducing how many uhlans they get with their shipments. It’s just not Germany.

Germany is kinda ok right now IMO. They will never be in a spot where everyone will be happy with them it seems, but they’re not OP and they’re not too weak right now.


For the sake of discussion if anything I would prefer to reduce the other units on shipments rather than the uhlans. E.g. 7 and 6 skirm instead of 8 and 7.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by aqwer »

Change the cost of uhlan to 75f 75c, keep 180hp, reduce att to 35 and pop to 1
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Major_dark »

TO my mind, the biggest balance problem with this civ exist when you tp 1st. Why not put the price at 250w ONLY for this civ? I think for instance that french tp 1st vs german tp in transition is still quite fair no?
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by kevinitalien »

the uhlan suck now, isn't that what everyone wanted?
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by dansil92 »

Well, the other civ that gets free stuff with shipments is india, and they always get a single vill from each shipment

so to balance the civ they should get 1 vill age 1, 2 vills with a colonial shipments, 3 with a fortress shipment and 4 with an industrial shipment

In my opinion germany is always going to feel unbalanced. They're either super weak or crazy strong and it seems they never have a middle ground to that. Just remember its better than original Vanilla release with no shipment penalty, a two falc shipment, 18 range war wagons that took no bonus damage from skirms...
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe wrote:I really really hate the idea of reducing how many uhlans they get with their shipments. It’s just not Germany.
Imo reducing the amount of uhlans you get in colo might change the civ too much yeah (plus it might be overnerf). The 2 extra uhlans you get with the first few colonial shipments are really important in terms of design/gameplay; if you had only 1 free uhlan for example, you wouldn't be able to go raid directly with your first shipment (1 uhlan does nothing), wouldn't be able to fight 5 huss with 6 uhlans (though I guess with 190 hp uhlans you would), would have half the amount of uhlans when going naked ff, etc. Also whenever you're opening infantry, your uhlan count is gonna be kinda ridiculous, like 1 uhlan doesn't even snare anything.

However I don't mind tweaking the free uhlans in fortress. I don't think getting 1 less uhlan per shipment changes the design too much at that point in the game, it just reduces your mass. Also that means you'd nerf the ger fortress without nerfing its colo (and thus also nerf TP ger more than no TP ger), which is good.

Mitoe wrote:Germany is kinda ok right now IMO. They will never be in a spot where everyone will be happy with them it seems, but they’re not OP and they’re not too weak right now.
Yeah I agree germany is alright in terms of balance now. The xp change is still very awkward though, it's just really ugly on no TP maps, and even on TP maps it invalidates some builds because the timings are now off (e.g 3 sw / 700g ff or some colonial timings).

Mitoe wrote:For the sake of discussion if anything I would prefer to reduce the other units on shipments rather than the uhlans. E.g. 7 and 6 skirm instead of 8 and 7.
Yeah that's totally fine too. 7/6 skirms, 8/7 uhlans (or two 8 uhlans card possibly), 3 ww + 2 uhlans I guess. Not sure it's enough if we also revert uhlan HP though.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by iNcog »

Isn't the core of the topic balancing free cavalry for Germany vs that cavalry unit actually being good?

If the bonus of Germany was free Hussars instead of Uhlans, would it be broken as fuck?
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Sargsyan »

iNcog wrote:Isn't the core of the topic balancing free cavalry for Germany vs that cavalry unit actually being good?

If the bonus of Germany was free Hussars instead of Uhlans, would it be broken as fuck?
of course it would be broken af
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by iNcog »

Sargsyan wrote:
iNcog wrote:Isn't the core of the topic balancing free cavalry for Germany vs that cavalry unit actually being good?

If the bonus of Germany was free Hussars instead of Uhlans, would it be broken as fuck?
of course it would be broken af
Maybe the best way to balance Germany would be take Hussar as baseline for the civ bonus and work from there. that way Uhlans could not suck. their HP is a bit underwhelming right now

:hmm:

Idk. I am PR22 talking about civ balance don't listen to me
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by reuehcS »

When these civilizations rise their ages:
Spain does not increase xp speed;
Britons no longer receive villages per home;
Holland does not increase the number of vacancies for building banks;
For France, the CDB collection rate does not increase;
Portuguese does not receive 2, 3, 4 TC cars;
Ottomans do not train villages more gradually;
India does not receive 2, 3, 4, 5 villages;
Make the Germans receive 1, 2 and 3 Uhlans or, 2, 2, 2. Make the Uhlans' statistics good, as it was the only decent unit at age 2, even if even worse than other hand cavalry in terms of population utilization .
Doppelsoldner, Crossbowmen and Pikeman are just bad against the Musketeer / Hussar combo and only seem decent because Germany receives many free Uhlans that make up for it.

Resume:
-> 1, 2 and 3 Uhlans (this preserves the design that you defend so much)
-> Uhlans with RE statistics at a fair cost of 65f and 100c
-> Give the Doppelsoldners the increased attack that the other heavy hand infantry units received, thus strengthening the colonial game
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by zoom »

As far as balance is concerned, the slight Uhlan hitpoints nerf seems good (outside of team games, possibly). I've said many times that I agree that the Uhlan hitpoints nerf isn't ideal, though; if only for its lack of popularity. The problem is that the current situation is relatively good, and that players are adverse to the viable alternatives.

OP is prominently displaying ridiculous bias (or ignorance, I suppose). At least it's true that Germans lacks Musketeers!
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by zoom »

Shikari wrote:Slow down of shipment change was so.dumb. now you don't have a shipment ready when you reach fortress of you do 3sw and 700coin on a to start.
It's slight; instead of requiring 110% xp per shipment, Germans now requires 112%. It's a matter of seconds. Try building a Native TP on 0TP maps, and try not to pretend as if Germans was more viable on those maps on EP6.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah reducing the amount of free uhlans would have been an easier way to balance the civ. And it has been discussed a billion times, but instead we get weird shit because apparently design is more important than balance
First, the way Goodspeed chose seems easier, since it doesn't involve changing dozens of shipments, and is more tweakable. Second, a simple and slight hitpoints nerf seems less weird than noticeably diminishing the primary bonus of the civilization – but instead we get these silly comments because crying is more important than being reasonable.

In order to make any point you may have, please elaborate on what you mean by "easier" and "weird", respectively.

Thanks!
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

"dozens of shipments" lol. It's like 5 fortress unit shipments or so.

Do I have to explain why reducing the amount of uhlans (or units) is logical since the problem was germany having too many units? Alternatives like xp penalty and uhlan hp are definitely weirder.
And how isn't it easier to change 5 shipments than to change uhlan HP (tried 185 too) and xp penalty?
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Hazza54321 »

it would be nice if the unit was viable before industrial
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

And if you didn't have to build a native post to have a shipment ready upon colo on no TP maps.....
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by duckzilla »

Mitoe wrote:Germany is kinda ok right now IMO. They will never be in a spot where everyone will be happy with them it seems, but they’re not OP and they’re not too weak right now.
This hit right in the feels.
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