Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

France iNcog
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by iNcog »

If native sites give XP now that might be pretty good and different for Germans though? I don't think many high level players will like it, but it's an XP trickle that helps out and it opens options up because now you can make natives too. That doesn't seem so bad. As long as the native site is actually worth the 200w investment.

It's pretty different but why not?
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Kaiserklein »

It's not worth getting the nat post only for the xp, you have to make use of it too. In many situations germany isn't a civ that wants to go nats. Sometimes it's nice yes
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by WickedCossack »

Major_dark wrote:TO my mind, the biggest balance problem with this civ exist when you tp 1st. Why not put the price at 250w ONLY for this civ? I think for instance that french tp 1st vs german tp in transition is still quite fair no?
Yea, this was the exact change I suggest 3-4 years ago in the internal EP discussion. I liked it because it helps retain German's strength on no TP maps where as every other change weakens then on no TP and doesn't affect the civ bonus.

Regardless they are balanced (ish) now, just in a different way.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by bobabu »

Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah reducing the number of free uhlans would have been an easier way to balance the civ. And it has been discussed a billion times, but instead, we get weird shit because apparently design is more important than balance
Totally agree with this. You should weaken their fortress shipments. They are just too strong but before the fortress age, Germany shouldn't be changed. It's stupid that their go-to strategy is always hitting the fortress age and then hit a timing where they can do enough damage to win the game in the long run.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Yea i dont see how making their core unit unusable in fights can be good for the game or civ
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Post by Guigs »

Hazza54321 wrote:Yea i dont see how making their core unit unusable in fights can be good for the game or civ
Because you can "moesbar" units as Germany so it doesn't matter if they are weak you know #germanlobby
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Garja »

Aren't ulhans only -5 hp at the moment?
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:Aren't ulhans only -5 hp at the moment?
Theyve been -10hp for like 2+ years
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by zoom »

Kaiserklein wrote:"dozens of shipments" lol. It's like 5 fortress unit shipments or so.

Do I have to explain why reducing the amount of uhlans (or units) is logical since the problem was germany having too many units? Alternatives like xp penalty and uhlan hp are definitely weirder.
And how isn't it easier to change 5 shipments than to change uhlan HP (tried 185 too) and xp penalty?
All Fortress Age shipments come with 3 Uhlans, so yes – dozens and dozens. Even if we disregard that fact, it's easier to make one change than to make five.

Do I have to explain that the problem is the civilization's performance against others, not any one feature, and why it's illogical to address this issue by making the civilization more like others? How many times do Goodspeed and myself have to explain this before you stop acting like we haven't? There's nothing weird about nerfing Uhlan hitpoints, and I actually agree with you that an xp penalty is weird—it's just that the civilization has always had one.

Like I've said again and again: I would consider even nerfing the number of Uhlans shipments give, but I would consider less undesirable options first. Thats all.

P.S. Sorry for not getting back to you on this particular post, until now.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by zoom »

bobabu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah reducing the number of free uhlans would have been an easier way to balance the civ. And it has been discussed a billion times, but instead, we get weird shit because apparently design is more important than balance
Totally agree with this. You should weaken their fortress shipments. They are just too strong but before the fortress age, Germany shouldn't be changed. It's stupid that their go-to strategy is always hitting the fortress age and then hit a timing where they can do enough damage to win the game in the long run.
How would you do that, without keeping the civilization overpowered??? It's as if you haven't read any previous posts on the topic. Try these:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50#p430139
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50#p427103
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50

It's a shame that the civilization was ever given "The Exiled Prince", though. Otherwise, we'd not be having this discussion in the first place.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by dansil92 »

Bug fix: remove exiled prince
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

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Post by harcha »

Bug fix 2: remove quartermaster
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by bobabu »

zoom wrote:
bobabu wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:Yeah reducing the number of free uhlans would have been an easier way to balance the civ. And it has been discussed a billion times, but instead, we get weird shit because apparently design is more important than balance
Agree with this. You should weaken their fortress shipments. They are just too strong but before the fortress age, Germany shouldn't be changed. It's stupid that their go-to strategy is always hitting the fortress age and then hit a timing where they can do enough damage to win the game in the long run.
How would you do that, without keeping the civilization overpowered??? It's as if you haven't read any previous posts on the topic. Try these:

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50#p430139
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50#p427103
viewtopic.php?f=80&t=19679&start=50

It's a shame that the civilization was ever given "The Exiled Prince", though. Otherwise, we'd not be having this discussion in the first place.

You are honestly not the right person to judge, you simply lack game knowledge to do so. And Goodspeed hasn't played actively as well. That's why we got in this mess in the first place. Now you are making a correct argument by saying the civilizations should keep their uniqueness. But by rendering the uhlans useless you stirp them of the uniqueness they once had. You should listen to the best players in the game right now. Kaiserklein and Hazza are better than goodspeed ever was and they don't share your opinion. Now if you are so keen on keeping the 3 uhlans why not reduce the number of skirmishers you get with the 7 skrim shipment and instead of 3 war wagons 2. Ofc you can't leave the 9 Uhlans untouched. It probably should be reduced to 7. You could argue that I am basing my suggestions not on playtesting, randomly, but so do you. Get Hazza and Kaiserklein on board and try changing the age 3 shipments, I do believe that it is the right way to go forward.


And btw with your arrogance, you completely forget about team games. Making uhlans useless completely changed their team game capabilities. By changing cards that are mostly used in 1v1to begin with you keep their team game alive.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by charlemango »

zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:"dozens of shipments" lol. It's like 5 fortress unit shipments or so.

Do I have to explain why reducing the amount of uhlans (or units) is logical since the problem was germany having too many units? Alternatives like xp penalty and uhlan hp are definitely weirder.
And how isn't it easier to change 5 shipments than to change uhlan HP (tried 185 too) and xp penalty?
All Fortress Age shipments come with 3 Uhlans, so yes – dozens and dozens. Even if we disregard that fact, it's easier to make one change than to make five.

Do I have to explain that the problem is the civilization's performance against others, not any one feature, and why it's illogical to address this issue by making the civilization more like others? How many times do Goodspeed and myself have to explain this before you stop acting like we haven't? There's nothing weird about nerfing Uhlan hitpoints, and I actually agree with you that an xp penalty is weird—it's just that the civilization has always had one.

Like I've said again and again: I would consider even nerfing the number of Uhlans shipments give, but I would consider less undesirable options first. Thats all.

P.S. Sorry for not getting back to you on this particular post, until now.
You're right, if Germany got 2 uhlans with every Fortress shipment it'd basically turn into a clone of France or Spain.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by harcha »

charlemango wrote:
zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:"dozens of shipments" lol. It's like 5 fortress unit shipments or so.

Do I have to explain why reducing the amount of uhlans (or units) is logical since the problem was germany having too many units? Alternatives like xp penalty and uhlan hp are definitely weirder.
And how isn't it easier to change 5 shipments than to change uhlan HP (tried 185 too) and xp penalty?
All Fortress Age shipments come with 3 Uhlans, so yes – dozens and dozens. Even if we disregard that fact, it's easier to make one change than to make five.

Do I have to explain that the problem is the civilization's performance against others, not any one feature, and why it's illogical to address this issue by making the civilization more like others? How many times do Goodspeed and myself have to explain this before you stop acting like we haven't? There's nothing weird about nerfing Uhlan hitpoints, and I actually agree with you that an xp penalty is weird—it's just that the civilization has always had one.

Like I've said again and again: I would consider even nerfing the number of Uhlans shipments give, but I would consider less undesirable options first. Thats all.

P.S. Sorry for not getting back to you on this particular post, until now.
You're right, if Germany got 2 uhlans with every Fortress shipment it'd basically turn into a clone of France or Spain.
not sure if sarcasm
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by bobabu »

charlemango wrote:
zoom wrote:
Kaiserklein wrote:"dozens of shipments" lol. It's like 5 fortress unit shipments or so.

Do I have to explain why reducing the amount of uhlans (or units) is logical since the problem was germany having too many units? Alternatives like xp penalty and uhlan hp are definitely weirder.
And how isn't it easier to change 5 shipments than to change uhlan HP (tried 185 too) and xp penalty?
All Fortress Age shipments come with 3 Uhlans, so yes – dozens and dozens. Even if we disregard that fact, it's easier to make one change than to make five.

Do I have to explain that the problem is the civilization's performance against others, not any one feature, and why it's illogical to address this issue by making the civilization more like others? How many times do Goodspeed and myself have to explain this before you stop acting like we haven't? There's nothing weird about nerfing Uhlan hitpoints, and I actually agree with you that an xp penalty is weird—it's just that the civilization has always had one.

Like I've said again and again: I would consider even nerfing the number of Uhlans shipments give, but I would consider less undesirable options first. Thats all.

P.S. Sorry for not getting back to you on this particular post, until now.
You're right, if Germany got 2 uhlans with every Fortress shipment it'd basically turn into a clone of France or Spain.

It seems you both don't understand the concept of uniqueness. An average player who plays the game will want to make the unique unit of the chosen civilization. That's why the unique unit should be strong enough to beat a standard unit or at least have another bonus, like speed or multipliers against a certain unit type. That's why in Age of Empires 2 there is an emphasis on castle units which are unique to each civilization. Most of the castle units are good and worth using. Someone who will start playing Germany will just be pissed because the unique unit is just bad.

I don't see how tweaking fortress shipments takes the uniqueness of Germany away.
What's unique about the civ is that you get two types of units when you send a shipment.
By lowering the free uhlan amount you will still get two unit types. And again we are only talking about fortress shipments. In colonial, they should still receive 2 uhlans. In the fortress, however, they should only receive one extra or the second unit type should be tweaked.

The weakness of your argument is revealed when you hypothetically apply it to another civilization. Let's say Brits would get 2 bonus vills with every house they build. That would be lame. Nobody would argue that you shouldn't change it to one bonus vill per house. The uniqueness would still be there because brits are the only civilization who gets a bonus vill when building a house.

I, however, appreciate how much you've done for the community. And it's always easy to complain, especially for me who hasn't done anything @zoom.
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by charlemango »

Wow you really can't say anything sarcastic on the Internet huh
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Re: Does EP German sacrifice too much for their free uhlans?

Post by bobabu »

charlemango wrote:Wow you really can't say anything sarcastic on the Internet huh
Wasn't really directed at you but zoom. But you know when you have people like zoom sometimes hard to tell. :grin:

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