so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

[Squamiger]

I've generally been stuck at pr 23-24 for a year or so now and I don't really have any burning desire to try to rank up higher than that, but one thing I've noticed is that I am almost always the highest ranked player in any Free For All game I join. Mostly FFA is populated with people pr 10-25.

So what's up, high PR players? Why don't you like this game mode? I think it's incredibly fun if you give it a chance, and it makes for great streaming and audience engagement. There's so much "emergent gameplay"-- situations that entirely unfold because of interpersonal dynamics. There's trash talking. There's backstabbing. It's basically the battle royale genre that's become so popular lately.

The only thing is, there's no guaranteed win. Doesn't matter how good you are, you might just get 2v1ed. But, I think if we saw high PR players invest into this game mode, we could see some really amazing strategies that no one might have considered before. From my experience playing FFA there are already lots of little ways to survive or to get an advantage, or to get people to leave you alone.

Also, you just have to shift your mindset a little bit. FFA isn't about winning, it's about showing off-- how long can you survive a 3v1? Can you pull off something crazy, like a secret petard raid behind enemy lines? Can you face total annihilation with only 5 vills and and explorer left, and then rebuild in a tiny corner of the map and swing the game?

I for one, would love to see an 8 player FFA between the top PR players, and thinking back, I'm super bummed that we didn't get an 8 player FFA out of the NWC lan!

[[Armag] diarouga]

It would probably be laggy, but I could play a FFA with players who don't lag too much.

[thomasgreen6]

FFA could be a good gamemode. T90 does great community games for AOE2. Maybe playing regicide similar to his games would make these games more fun and less about surviving with walls.

[bittersalt123]

FFA not really marketed as competitive or fun to higher ranked players imo

[Lukas_L99]

It's just random, the guy who decides to boom and is lucky enough to not get rushed wins.

[Squamiger]

plugging samurai rev's FFA tourneys:

[edeholland]

The problem is that high PR players are generally competitive players. If you play competitively, the best strategy is either to all attack the best player or to just camp all game. Attacking someone will always put you on a disadvantage compared to others.

[RefluxSemantic]

It's just random, the guy who decides to boom and is lucky enough to not get rushed wins.

I'm not really a high pr player, but this.

[Squamiger]

It's just random, the guy who decides to boom and is lucky enough to not get rushed wins.

I've really found this is not the case, if people are smart. Everyone can see your score and everyone can communicate. If you start booming hard people will / should turn their attention to you. The game becomes really psychological, it's all about who can stay under the radar and avoid negative attention, but also not allow other people to boom too hard. You have to both check other people, and get checked as little as possible. It's a prisoner's dilemma situation.

and furthermore, like I said, the point of FFA is not necessarily to win, it's to show off

[edeholland]

Smart people won't attack booming players though, they will boom themselves.

[deleted_user0]

Let's say there was 100 000 dollar FFA game. Splitting money is strictly forbidden and leads to a death penalty.

Outcome would be that this game would probably take weeks, waiting for your opponents to fall asleep long enough to stop playing. It's because there is simply no benefit attacking someone.

Raiding is just bad. Spending tons of resources to weaken 1 out of 7 opponents.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The problem is that high PR players are generally competitive players. If you play competitively, the best strategy is either to all attack the best player or to just camp all game. Attacking someone will always put you on a disadvantage compared to others.

Booming is the best way to play so top players will most likely boom while raiding.

[Squamiger]

Smart people won't attack booming players though, they will boom themselves.

to a point. someone has to win eventually. if you watch SamRev's grand FFA finals, everyone tries to boom as hard as possible, but conflicts break out and it becomes a multifront conflict where everyone is trying to balance out their boom with checking other people's booms.

Let's say there was 100 000 dollar FFA game. Splitting money is strictly forbidden and leads to a death penalty.

Outcome would be that this game would probably take weeks, waiting for your opponents to fall asleep long enough to stop playing. It's because there is simply no benefit attacking someone.

Raiding is just bad. Spending tons of resources to weaken 1 out of 7 opponents.

yea, but this isn't the case. there's no money involved, and most people don't want to play for more than 2 hours or so. So there are lots of incentives to poke and attack.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Let's say there was 100 000 dollar FFA game. Splitting money is strictly forbidden and leads to a death penalty.

Outcome would be that this game would probably take weeks, waiting for your opponents to fall asleep long enough to stop playing. It's because there is simply no benefit attacking someone.

Yea, attacking someone is not worth but in casual games people would still push when they're 200/200 age 5 because else it's boring.
It's basically treaty except you can raid and poke all game.

[edeholland]

The problem is that high PR players are generally competitive players. If you play competitively, the best strategy is either to all attack the best player or to just camp all game. Attacking someone will always put you on a disadvantage compared to others.

Booming is the best way to play so top players will most likely boom while raiding.

Yep. I wonder if raiding is even worth it. I guess in a 10-hour game, it doesn't matter whether you do or don't.

[Mr_Bramboy]

I participated in SamuraiRevolution's FFA tournament. Unfortunately, I got 2v1d after a few minutes of fighting. That's the main reason why you don't see many high-leveled players in FFA. That, and the fact that it's just not a competitive gamemode.

[edeholland]

Smart people won't attack booming players though, they will boom themselves.

to a point. someone has to win eventually. if you watch SamRev's grand FFA finals, everyone tries to boom as hard as possible, but conflicts break out and it becomes a multifront conflict where everyone is trying to balance out their boom with checking other people's booms.

Let's say there was 100 000 dollar FFA game. Splitting money is strictly forbidden and leads to a death penalty.

Outcome would be that this game would probably take weeks, waiting for your opponents to fall asleep long enough to stop playing. It's because there is simply no benefit attacking someone.

Raiding is just bad. Spending tons of resources to weaken 1 out of 7 opponents.

yea, but this isn't the case. there's no money involved, and most people don't want to play for more than 2 hours or so. So there are lots of incentives to poke and attack.

Right, those players attacked because they were bored and because camping isn't fun. Competitive players generally play to win, especially when there is money involved. Why would you attack if you want to win?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Smart people won't attack booming players though, they will boom themselves.

to a point. someone has to win eventually. if you watch SamRev's grand FFA finals, everyone tries to boom as hard as possible, but conflicts break out and it becomes a multifront conflict where everyone is trying to balance out their boom with checking other people's booms.

That's because people don't try hard to win. Else the right strategy is to stay behind your walls with artillery and skirm and slowly push the walls on the map.

[[Armag] diarouga]

The problem is that high PR players are generally competitive players. If you play competitively, the best strategy is either to all attack the best player or to just camp all game. Attacking someone will always put you on a disadvantage compared to others.

Booming is the best way to play so top players will most likely boom while raiding.

Yep. I wonder if raiding is even worth it. I guess in a 10-hour game, it doesn't matter whether you do or don't.

Well, you at least need to defend your economy against raids, so you have to make some units.
I had this discussion some time ago (I think it was on esoc), and the conclusion was that the best strat was probably to start cav (or anti cav), because if you have units, it's not worth for the other players to attack you, and the guy who makes no units will get raided to death.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I participated in SamuraiRevolution's FFA tournament. Unfortunately, I got 2v1d after a few minutes of fighting. That's the main reason why you don't see many high-leveled players in FFA. That, and the fact that it's just not a competitive gamemode.

To be honest, top players playing FFA together could be fun but playing with noobs who rush you and 2v1 because you're a top player is annoying yea.

[Squamiger]

Ok, so in theory, you're all correct that high PR players are incentivized to do nothing but boom and wait forever. But I would just urge y'all to try it out. I think you might see that in practice, the game would play out differently and would be exciting. All it takes is one person to mix things up, and that starts a chain reaction of actions and responses. I would love to watch a stream of a high PR FFA.

[edeholland]

Top player king of the hill sounds way way better than top player FFA. You need a strong incentive to attack (and not just silly raiding and age 5 battles).

[deleted_user0]

In noob FFA you can easily make every player resign and win before 20 mins. They tend to resign and cry at the point you bring any units to their base lol

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ok, so in theory, you're all correct that high PR players are incentivized to do nothing but boom and wait forever. But I would just urge y'all to try it out. I think you might see that in practice, the game would play out differently and would be exciting. All it takes is one person to mix things up, and that starts a chain reaction of actions and responses. I would love to watch a stream of a high PR FFA.

I just wouldn't either push lol.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Top player king of the hill sounds way way better than top player FFA. You need a strong incentive to attack (and not just silly raiding and age 5 battles).

Yea probably.