so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

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France P i k i l i c
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by P i k i l i c »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:I do wish more played KOTH, that is some fun. and the games are fast so once you get a lobby going most will want to try again and again
Too bad you can not pick how long the timer has to stay on, if you straight do not build vills and just age up fast can almost get a free win.
well the timer depends of the number of players, if you could choose, then some hosts would pick stupid timers and or it would get voted and give a lot of drama

Hmm :hmm: I didn't see this free win idea really work, it's still risky for the player who does that and not really exciting for him even if it works
edeholland wrote:Who are you playing with that makes that strategy viable? I would siege down your tc after a few minutes.
This would be too long, he would win at the fort
or if your army is big enough you should just take control of the fort
Consider not the one who speaks the truth, but the truth that is said

:hmm: AoE logic :hmm:
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by Imperial Noob »

1. Create maps with convertible objects in the middle area, each working like the Hill of the King / Silk Road trading posts / cattle. They could look like flags, or something else.
2. Points in the middle of the map have an obstruction radius that affects walls
2. Add a variable that gets increased over time when a player holds a flag. Multiple flags mean a quicker increase.
3. Make it so that the amount of this variable shows for all players to see (like the number of score)
4. If someone reaches a certain amount of the victory variable, all other players get automatically defeated.
5. The amount of points can be selected in the lobby from a few reasonable options.

Like in Relic games.
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India Challenger_Marco
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by Challenger_Marco »

@howlingwolfpaw
ok i came up with nice rules for FFA tourney to make it fair and interesting
So i will suggest my ideas
The player who kills the max no of enemies win
like suppose for 6 players
if he kills 4 players he wins
if this doesnt sound good then you can do this
eliminating each player=10 points
and winning the game =10x(no of players)
so the seeding for next rounds moves on through point based system
which makes this fair because
like in 8 player ffa
u managed to kill 7 opponents but lost to the last one because he was untouched and boomed
which is not fair if he wins.
so hence the points system
yeah eliminating a player=10 points imo
in FFA u can do anything
rush and kill an opponent or boom and kill
since both to viable point system is good
else in normal ffa u gotta be unlucky which is bad and unbiased
8 ffa player killing 7 opponents +winning the game =80+80=160 points
8 player ffa killing 7 opponents but didnt win the game =70 points
winner got 80 points
something like this
i dont like giving more points for the winner than giving it TO the MVP player in that lobby
something like this would be awesome
and points get halved if you get double teamed
so if 2 players eliminate 1 opponent together they get half if the share of killing 1 opponent
so its 5 points in this case
and points gets divided on how much ppl vsing u
triple teamed the points getf halved by 3 and so on
so which makes 1v7 very bad option
as they get 10/7th of points
which is fair
as u cant make more than 200 pop army.
Some convo from arguements:
eliminating a player=10 points so 7 players eliminated me together so they all get 10/7 points which is 1.42 points each
which is terrible
terrible idea
cant expect 7 ppl army to not attack each other haha
max 1v2 or 1v3 should eminate that player
else its bad.
Review of the FFA samrev played with points can add more factors in the point system ,but here is mine which i discussed last year december 28th 2019
yellow and green left out ....assuming...yellow wins
yellow=10 points for killing blue +80 points for winning the game
samrev=5 points (for raiding pink ) +10 points for killing red+5 points for 1v2ing orange+10 points for killing purple
purple =10 points for killing teal+5 points for 1v2ing orange+5 points for doing eco damage to yellow early on
green=10 points for surviving till last

yellow=90 points
samrev=30 points
purple=20 points
green=10 points
orange=10 (5 points for killing teal and 5 points doing damage to green)
teal=5 points for rushing pink
pink=0 points
red=0 points
i didnt know what happened exactly in that game but based on seeing the stream the score as follows
you might want to put people in group stage and whoever gets the top3 points moves on or something like that.
:nwc:
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

  • Quote

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Challenger_Marco wrote:@howlingwolfpaw
ok i came up with nice rules for FFA tourney to make it fair and interesting
So i will suggest my ideas
The player who kills the max no of enemies win
like suppose for 6 players
if he kills 4 players he wins
if this doesnt sound good then you can do this
eliminating each player=10 points
and winning the game =10x(no of players)
so the seeding for next rounds moves on through point based system
which makes this fair because
like in 8 player ffa
u managed to kill 7 opponents but lost to the last one because he was untouched and boomed
which is not fair if he wins.
so hence the points system
yeah eliminating a player=10 points imo
in FFA u can do anything
rush and kill an opponent or boom and kill
since both to viable point system is good
else in normal ffa u gotta be unlucky which is bad and unbiased
8 ffa player killing 7 opponents +winning the game =80+80=160 points
8 player ffa killing 7 opponents but didnt win the game =70 points
winner got 80 points
something like this
i dont like giving more points for the winner than giving it TO the MVP player in that lobby
something like this would be awesome
and points get halved if you get double teamed
so if 2 players eliminate 1 opponent together they get half if the share of killing 1 opponent
so its 5 points in this case
and points gets divided on how much ppl vsing u
triple teamed the points getf halved by 3 and so on
so which makes 1v7 very bad option
as they get 10/7th of points
which is fair
as u cant make more than 200 pop army.
Some convo from arguements:
eliminating a player=10 points so 7 players eliminated me together so they all get 10/7 points which is 1.42 points each
which is terrible
terrible idea
cant expect 7 ppl army to not attack each other haha
max 1v2 or 1v3 should eminate that player
else its bad.
Review of the FFA samrev played with points can add more factors in the point system ,but here is mine which i discussed last year december 28th 2019
yellow and green left out ....assuming...yellow wins
yellow=10 points for killing blue +80 points for winning the game
samrev=5 points (for raiding pink ) +10 points for killing red+5 points for 1v2ing orange+10 points for killing purple
purple =10 points for killing teal+5 points for 1v2ing orange+5 points for doing eco damage to yellow early on
green=10 points for surviving till last

yellow=90 points
samrev=30 points
purple=20 points
green=10 points
orange=10 (5 points for killing teal and 5 points doing damage to green)
teal=5 points for rushing pink
pink=0 points
red=0 points
i didnt know what happened exactly in that game but based on seeing the stream the score as follows
you might want to put people in group stage and whoever gets the top3 points moves on or something like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
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India Challenger_Marco
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
Challenger_Marco wrote:@howlingwolfpaw
ok i came up with nice rules for FFA tourney to make it fair and interesting
So i will suggest my ideas
The player who kills the max no of enemies win
like suppose for 6 players
if he kills 4 players he wins
if this doesnt sound good then you can do this
eliminating each player=10 points
and winning the game =10x(no of players)
so the seeding for next rounds moves on through point based system
which makes this fair because
like in 8 player ffa
u managed to kill 7 opponents but lost to the last one because he was untouched and boomed
which is not fair if he wins.
so hence the points system
yeah eliminating a player=10 points imo
in FFA u can do anything
rush and kill an opponent or boom and kill
since both to viable point system is good
else in normal ffa u gotta be unlucky which is bad and unbiased
8 ffa player killing 7 opponents +winning the game =80+80=160 points
8 player ffa killing 7 opponents but didnt win the game =70 points
winner got 80 points
something like this
i dont like giving more points for the winner than giving it TO the MVP player in that lobby
something like this would be awesome
and points get halved if you get double teamed
so if 2 players eliminate 1 opponent together they get half if the share of killing 1 opponent
so its 5 points in this case
and points gets divided on how much ppl vsing u
triple teamed the points getf halved by 3 and so on
so which makes 1v7 very bad option
as they get 10/7th of points
which is fair
as u cant make more than 200 pop army.
Some convo from arguements:
eliminating a player=10 points so 7 players eliminated me together so they all get 10/7 points which is 1.42 points each
which is terrible
terrible idea
cant expect 7 ppl army to not attack each other haha
max 1v2 or 1v3 should eminate that player
else its bad.
Review of the FFA samrev played with points can add more factors in the point system ,but here is mine which i discussed last year december 28th 2019
yellow and green left out ....assuming...yellow wins
yellow=10 points for killing blue +80 points for winning the game
samrev=5 points (for raiding pink ) +10 points for killing red+5 points for 1v2ing orange+10 points for killing purple
purple =10 points for killing teal+5 points for 1v2ing orange+5 points for doing eco damage to yellow early on
green=10 points for surviving till last

yellow=90 points
samrev=30 points
purple=20 points
green=10 points
orange=10 (5 points for killing teal and 5 points doing damage to green)
teal=5 points for rushing pink
pink=0 points
red=0 points
i didnt know what happened exactly in that game but based on seeing the stream the score as follows
you might want to put people in group stage and whoever gets the top3 points moves on or something like that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paragraph
i just copy pasted from sam rev cba to arrange it and i have no internet soo...
:nwc:
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by edeholland »

What exactly is eliminating a player? If Diarouga kills 40 units of Snowww but in the last second I come in with 30 tercio pikemen and siege down the last house, do I get the points?

What happens when a player resigns? Does nobody get the points?
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by Challenger_Marco »

edeholland wrote:What exactly is eliminating a player? If Diarouga kills 40 units of Snowww but in the last second I come in with 30 tercio pikemen and siege down the last house, do I get the points?
Who does most of the damage gets points,its even both get half of the share can be analysed after the game only.
edeholland wrote:What happens when a player resigns? Does nobody get the points?
Yes.
Maybe we need an Separate UI for FFA tourney like this ,T90 used an UI in HD 3 ,which can calculate trade value,resources value etc.
:nwc:
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by dansil92 »

Challenger_Marco wrote:
edeholland wrote:What exactly is eliminating a player? If Diarouga kills 40 units of Snowww but in the last second I come in with 30 tercio pikemen and siege down the last house, do I get the points?
Who does most of the damage gets points,its even both get half of the share can be analysed after the game only.
edeholland wrote:What happens when a player resigns? Does nobody get the points?
Yes.
Maybe we need an Separate UI for FFA tourney like this ,T90 used an UI in HD 3 ,which can calculate trade value,resources value etc.
Or here's a crazy idea. Winning ffa is winning :P
Image
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

P i k i l i c wrote:
howlingwolfpaw wrote:I do wish more played KOTH, that is some fun. and the games are fast so once you get a lobby going most will want to try again and again
Too bad you can not pick how long the timer has to stay on, if you straight do not build vills and just age up fast can almost get a free win.
well the timer depends of the number of players, if you could choose, then some hosts would pick stupid timers and or it would get voted and give a lot of drama

I did this with sioux, with some fast age up, vil and treasure guardians and cav shipments to protect it, I was just a couple seconds from winning. If I tried it a few more times it could have been refined, but as you say it wouldn't really be fun to win that way, and if it fails you have not a chance to recover.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

edeholland wrote:What exactly is eliminating a player? If Diarouga kills 40 units of Snowww but in the last second I come in with 30 tercio pikemen and siege down the last house, do I get the points?

What happens when a player resigns? Does nobody get the points?

good question, I think I see that as a since diarouga and other were in battle first (declare it maybe?) he would get the kill points, and you would lose points, but be in a better position to fight the next person, diarouga, since he likely lost a lot of momentum fighting snoww, so then if he kills diarouga he doesn't get that much of a point lead to rank for successive rounds.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

edeholland wrote:
howlingwolfpaw wrote: Too bad you can not pick how long the timer has to stay on, if you straight do not build vills and just age up fast can almost get a free win.
Who are you playing with that makes that strategy viable? I would siege down your tc after a few minutes.

see post above, but unfortunately not many really know how to play KOTH, when I host a game I try to explain it is not a boom game type, and so many want to fast industrial, which does work sometimes, but other times it was just like 2-3 players actually in the game
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Challenger_Marco wrote:@howlingwolfpaw
ok i came up with nice rules for FFA tourney to make it fair and interesting
So i will suggest my ideas
The player who kills the max no of enemies win
like suppose for 6 players
if he kills 4 players he wins
if this doesnt sound good then you can do this
eliminating each player=10 points
and winning the game =10x(no of players)
so the seeding for next rounds moves on through point based system
which makes this fair because
like in 8 player ffa
u managed to kill 7 opponents but lost to the last one because he was untouched and boomed
which is not fair if he wins.
so hence the points system
yeah eliminating a player=10 points imo
in FFA u can do anything
rush and kill an opponent or boom and kill
since both to viable point system is good
else in normal ffa u gotta be unlucky which is bad and unbiased
8 ffa player killing 7 opponents +winning the game =80+80=160 points
8 player ffa killing 7 opponents but didnt win the game =70 points
winner got 80 points
something like this
i dont like giving more points for the winner than giving it TO the MVP player in that lobby
something like this would be awesome
and points get halved if you get double teamed
so if 2 players eliminate 1 opponent together they get half if the share of killing 1 opponent
so its 5 points in this case
and points gets divided on how much ppl vsing u
triple teamed the points getf halved by 3 and so on
so which makes 1v7 very bad option
as they get 10/7th of points
which is fair
as u cant make more than 200 pop army.
Some convo from arguements:
eliminating a player=10 points so 7 players eliminated me together so they all get 10/7 points which is 1.42 points each
which is terrible
terrible idea
cant expect 7 ppl army to not attack each other haha
max 1v2 or 1v3 should eminate that player
else its bad.
Review of the FFA samrev played with points can add more factors in the point system ,but here is mine which i discussed last year december 28th 2019
yellow and green left out ....assuming...yellow wins
yellow=10 points for killing blue +80 points for winning the game
samrev=5 points (for raiding pink ) +10 points for killing red+5 points for 1v2ing orange+10 points for killing purple
purple =10 points for killing teal+5 points for 1v2ing orange+5 points for doing eco damage to yellow early on
green=10 points for surviving till last

yellow=90 points
samrev=30 points
purple=20 points
green=10 points
orange=10 (5 points for killing teal and 5 points doing damage to green)
teal=5 points for rushing pink
pink=0 points
red=0 points
i didnt know what happened exactly in that game but based on seeing the stream the score as follows
you might want to put people in group stage and whoever gets the top3 points moves on or something like that.
I like most of what you have here, but it doesn't necessarily reward the best players if they are just going to get teamed and rewarded points. It gets tricky but even a if each player only gained a couple points to kill the person likely to rack up the most kills is still a win. Even losing points may be worth it to kill the likely winner.
I like that the winner does get a majority of points, though its not likely one person will kill 7 players to only barely lose to the last player, so likely the winner will have a significant point lead. But that is up to the room or even that top player to let someone boom. That should have been one of the early targets.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by edeholland »

I don't know why you would want to make FFA complicated with rules, officially declaring war and specials UI's. KotH would do fine for a high-PR mini tournament.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

do you think teaming people is a skillful act? if its a competitive game should reward skills and achievements. Its really not all that complex, people can still do it, but at a cost, it adds a element of cost bennefit analysis on how to get more points. Say someone like cometk was in the game, 1v1 he is likely going to go through a guantlet and fight everyone and win that way, because he is one of the best FFA players I know of, That is a known going into the event, so it would reward people to play dirty and team up on him because of that, he will lose because people know he is a super star. if those points come at a loss, maybe players will evaluate it as a better option to gain points elsewhere, like taking out that boomer instead, and save the teaming down to the last 3, (which maybe the penalty is lifted when only 3 in game)

FFA is a complex game type so I think in judging requires complex rules. No one likes to be in a good fair fight, then get ransacked on the side and lose because of that. its the main reason why people do not play FFA as much. Good form makes for Fun FFAs and battles across the map
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by aaryngend »

howlingwolfpaw wrote:do you think teaming people is a skillful act? if its a competitive game should reward skills and achievements. Its really not all that complex, people can still do it, but at a cost, it adds a element of cost bennefit analysis on how to get more points.
I think this shows the whole problem of this thread. FFA is about having fun, not about creating competitive fair games where the best player should ideally win.
As long as some basic rules are set up (no 2/3v1 on purpose, no full eco/defense) it can be fun.

If you put competitive ideals into this, you are puring too much salt into the soup :salt:
FFA games are the direct opposite of true competition. Let it stay that way.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

Oh I agree, its why I do not play the FFA tourneys, but in my thousands of FFA games experience these are ideas I have thought about if it ever were to be. That is why I also would be interested in casting and judging games more so than playing. I am not a very competitive player, I often wait until other players are ready to have a good battle, because that is what I enjoy the most. rushing someones TC with 30 muskets and they aren't ready feels like I cheated myself out of a good battle.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by edeholland »

FFA is a complex game type
What makes you say that? If all players really want to win, all it comes down to is spending the least required resources on anything that doesn't help your eco.
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

edeholland wrote:
FFA is a complex game type
What makes you say that? If all players really want to win, all it comes down to is spending the least required resources on anything that doesn't help your eco.

Its complex because you do not really know who sets their targets on you, and what is the best target you should take, in 1v1... you basically know where your target is, can see his deck and have an idea what to counter build.

the whole point of doing it a points system is that people are discouraged that players who do the most work lose, so gaining points throughout the game and not just for the win entices people to play for points and not to win, thus saving up eco is a less efficient way to gain points
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by Squamiger »

edeholland wrote:What exactly is eliminating a player? If Diarouga kills 40 units of Snowww but in the last second I come in with 30 tercio pikemen and siege down the last house, do I get the points?

What happens when a player resigns? Does nobody get the points?
this should just be a subjective and arbitrary decision decided by the caster or judge. it ultimately doesn't matter that much
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Re: so, high PR players, why don't you play FFA?

Post by sebnan12 »

Squamiger wrote:I've generally been stuck at pr 23-24 for a year or so now and I don't really have any burning desire to try to rank up higher than that, but one thing I've noticed is that I am almost always the highest ranked player in any Free For All game I join. Mostly FFA is populated with people pr 10-25.

So what's up, high PR players? Why don't you like this game mode? I think it's incredibly fun if you give it a chance, and it makes for great streaming and audience engagement. There's so much "emergent gameplay"-- situations that entirely unfold because of interpersonal dynamics. There's trash talking. There's backstabbing. It's basically the battle royale genre that's become so popular lately.

The only thing is, there's no guaranteed win. Doesn't matter how good you are, you might just get 2v1ed. But, I think if we saw high PR players invest into this game mode, we could see some really amazing strategies that no one might have considered before. From my experience playing FFA there are already lots of little ways to survive or to get an advantage, or to get people to leave you alone.

Also, you just have to shift your mindset a little bit. FFA isn't about winning, it's about showing off-- how long can you survive a 3v1? Can you pull off something crazy, like a secret petard raid behind enemy lines? Can you face total annihilation with only 5 vills and and explorer left, and then rebuild in a tiny corner of the map and swing the game?

I for one, would love to see an 8 player FFA between the top PR players, and thinking back, I'm super bummed that we didn't get an 8 player FFA out of the NWC lan!
i get kicked from every ffa so ty
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