[Top 8] Most random EP changes

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think you assume I have more power than I do.
– Arrow Knight ranged attack range decreased to 28 (from 30)
Please note that this nerf, which makes the unit more reasonable to counter at range, does not affect line of sight or siege attack (which is used versus buildings and ships). Thank you to Mitoe for highlighting this issue to me.
From what I understand, you asked Zoi to nerf the ARK range, and he did.
I'm in the exact same boat as you or any other top player at the moment. Zoi asks me questions, I answer them. Or I talk through other suggestions with him.
Not in the exact same boat as me because Zoi pested me. So yea, it makes me mad when people force changes I consider bad without discussing them. Not sure you can blame me for that, many people rage quited the EP team (when it was still a thing) because they lost a poll and some changes they didn't like were implemented.

Anyway, it's quite paradoxical that you claim that I act as if I were the sole authority when I discuss changes and I used to make suggestions (I don't anymore coz it's pointless) while you pushed a change in (whether it was intentional or not).
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

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Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:With the cover mode bug fixed and the healing dance nerfed, WC just isn't good anymore.
I'm not sure I agree with that. It was overpowered before without a doubt, but it still seems pretty insane from the games I've played vs it. Even the Chinese monk seems ridiculous on cover mode still.
Then if you don't think it's the best choice, why don't you let people suggest better changes ? As I said, it's fine if we disagree, but don't implement a questionable change without discussing it.
I did think it was the best solution, but it's very possible I'm wrong and that there is a better option. Once again, please don't act as if I'M the one implementing the change. By suggesting it to Zoi I am opening it for discussion. Normally I would assume he would ask others about changes before implementing them; that was just not the case this time.
Not in the exact same boat as me because Zoi pested me. So yea, it makes me mad when people force changes I consider bad without discussing them. Not sure you can blame me for that, many people rage quited the EP team (when it was still a thing) because they lost a poll and some changes they didn't like were implemented.
Not surprising when all you do is flame him and anyone who agrees with anything he says. I don't know how you can expect to have your opinion respected when you rarely show any respect yourself. I have never said that Zoi is perfect or even the best person for the job or that the way he currently handles the EP process is the best. But I've seen a hell of a lot more respect for others from him than I have from you or any other top player when it comes to balance discussions.

I think a group of top players + Zoi could be a great way to get EP into a spot everyone can be happy with. This can still happen. But it requires everyone to stop behaving like children and show a little bit of respect for each other.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by gamevideo113 »

I really don’t believe 30 range is a problem with arrow knights (what’s problematic about lategame team aztec is for example 20k hp walls with building dance...). If anything change the art multiplier from 5 to 4.
2 pop and 3.75 speed makes them awkward and unfun to use, they should not be reverted imo.
And WC isn’t weak, i remember watching one game (Mitoe vs Lukas iirc) on colorado not so long ago that was basically won by the constant reviving of the WC.

Anyway i think it would be more productive to make polls and actual dedicated discussion instead of 24/7 EP bashing by the same individuals over and over to the point of depersonalization. EP developement shouldn’t neither about who shouts the loudest, but i agree that it could also be a bit more transparent (in the scope of EP9).
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Mitoe »

gamevideo113 wrote:And WC isn’t weak, i remember watching one game (Mitoe vs Lukas iirc) on colorado not so long ago that was basically won by the constant reviving of the WC.
You can't revive the warchief like he did in that game on the current version of EP. You have to revive it at the firepit and walk him back to the fight. This is still very good though I think considering how tanky and fast he is, and his special ability kills a couple of units guaranteed.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by gamevideo113 »

Mitoe wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:And WC isn’t weak, i remember watching one game (Mitoe vs Lukas iirc) on colorado not so long ago that was basically won by the constant reviving of the WC.
You can't revive the warchief like he did in that game on the current version of EP. You have to revive it at the firepit and walk him back to the fight. This is still very good though I think considering how tanky and fast he is, and his special ability kills a couple of units guaranteed.
Yeah iirc Lukas was defending and his firepit was very close to the fight. You were playing french and eventually ran out of gold or something. I’ll see if i can find the game again, later.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Mitoe »

gamevideo113 wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:And WC isn’t weak, i remember watching one game (Mitoe vs Lukas iirc) on colorado not so long ago that was basically won by the constant reviving of the WC.
You can't revive the warchief like he did in that game on the current version of EP. You have to revive it at the firepit and walk him back to the fight. This is still very good though I think considering how tanky and fast he is, and his special ability kills a couple of units guaranteed.
Yeah iirc Lukas was defending and his firepit was very close to the fight. You were playing french and eventually ran out of gold or something. I’ll see if i can find the game again, later.
Ah, on Colorado. I think maybe you must be confusing me with someone else, because I don't remember this game? I assumed you were talking about a different game from the Two Towns tournament last year.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

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Post by Hazza54321 »

arrow knights need to be very good vs artilery thats kinda the point, theyre sub par at sieging and you cant use them in fights. Point being theyre very specialised and expensive and therefore should be good at what they do and having just 2 more range than a falc and same range as a hc and an awkward setup animation they would still be terrible units even at 0.5 population.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Mitoe »

Hazza54321 wrote:arrow knights need to be very good vs artilery thats kinda the point, theyre sub par at sieging and you cant use them in fights. Point being theyre very specialised and expensive and therefore should be good at what they do and having just 2 more range than a falc and same range as a hc and an awkward setup animation they would still be terrible units even at 0.5 population.
Well then I'm probably wrong. They did feel very oppressive to me whenever I've seen them though. When I suggested 2 less range I admittedly did not consider the range of other cannons, only the range of units like skirmishers, musketeers, dragoons, etc. since it feels like those are the units that are going to be trying to kill arrow knights more so than cannons.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'm not sure I agree with that. It was overpowered before without a doubt, but it still seems pretty insane from the games I've played vs it. Even the Chinese monk seems ridiculous on cover mode still.
You can't be in cover mode and snipe the falcs at the same time. Anyway, it's an age up politician (2 noble huts so 650resources) and an age 3 shipment (potentially 1000w). If your opponent invests 3500VS to snipe 1 falc, you're totally fine. The WC isn't scary anymore.
That's another discussion though.
I don't know how you can expect to have your opinion respected when you rarely show any respect yourself.
So I'm not "in the same boat as you and any top player". Dunno if your previous comment was merely a bait because you wanted to say that. Anyway, it seems like I'm not the only player who can't communicate and feels disrespected by Zoi so maybe I'm not the only problematic person.
I think a group of top players + Zoi could be a great way to get EP into a spot everyone can be happy with. This can still happen. But it requires everyone to stop behaving like children and show a little bit of respect for each other.
I don't know if it can still happen, it's up to you and the other ESOC staff members I guess.

And please, don't act like the victim here. I'm angry and frustrated because EP8 has many changes I'd call bad or "random". Still, I tried to explain in a constructive way why I think that the ark change is a bad one :
They were better before in 1v1 games. You're not going to make more than 5-10 of them, so it's just 100/200w (ie 2-3 maces). The 2 range however is just much more important when you want to trade 5 arrow knights for 2 falcs defended by a skirm mass, especially when you can only train 5 units per batch.
And you started to judge me :
I think you jump to conclusions very quickly sometimes, and I really doubt you have enough experience to say that 28 range down from 30 makes the unit useless when it was so good before.
Still, my next comment was totally fine :
That's no what I said lol, nice straw man fallacy. 1 pop 30 range ark were too good in some specific situations in team games. In 1v1, they were just fine so it's not like they were "so good before". And 28 doesn't "make the unit useless", it makes it bad. You still need to train ark to counter artillery because you don't have a good cav/ranged cav unit against artillery, but ark are worse than before.

I'm not jumping quickly to conclusions, just saying that ark were considered to be bad (and that's why they got buffed in the first place) and now they're worse than before the buff in 1v1 xD. Don't you think that's an issue ? A unit is too weak so you nerf it :hmm:
And you started with the agressive comments.
I don't know what to say to you man. I think anyone can see from how angry you get about every single change no matter how large or how small that you jump to conclusions very quickly, especially given how rarely you play the game yourself--which is exactly the reason you yourself criticize Zoi. You claim he doesn't play the game, so it doesn't make sense for him to make changes, but then you rarely play either, and when you do it's for a week or so every few months, and usually only vs majors/captain or unrated games on forced matchups and maps vs decent players.

No matter what arguments you make you cannot be the sole authority on the game.
Sure, I stopped answering nicely after that, but don't play the victim. I'm not the "mean childishrouga" while you're Saint Mitoe.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by gamevideo113 »

Mitoe wrote:
gamevideo113 wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Yeah iirc Lukas was defending and his firepit was very close to the fight. You were playing french and eventually ran out of gold or something. I’ll see if i can find the game again, later.
Ah, on Colorado. I think maybe you must be confusing me with someone else, because I don't remember this game? I assumed you were talking about a different game from the Two Towns tournament last year.
This is the link to your stream, titled “Practicing to avoid retirement”. Unfortunately the video seems to be no longer available.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/478768826
I remember you even tried to wall the warchief in one corner of the map but somehow he escaped.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

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Post by Mitoe »

@[Armag] diarouga I'm sorry then. It's not my intention to be "aggressive" or anything here. I guess I just get frustrated when it feels like all I see from you are posts I consider antagonistic and unproductive towards EP and Zoi. I understand that you want to improve the game as much as possible, as I also do, but I just feel like the way you've been going about it on these forums ultimately doesn't get us any closer to a solution. If anything it just makes it even more unlikely that Zoi will listen to any of us when you constantly entice others to join in on your flaming.

Is it really that strange that so many people are hesitant to change the way EP currently functions when the majority of top players are so clearly hostile towards other opinions, rather than engaging in respectful conversation about the benefits or deficiencies of changes?

Calling a change "random" or saying it has "no purpose" or anything doesn't actually mean anything. It just means that you don't like it, but there's no real substance behind this claim. I know that you and others are very capable of providing arguments against these changes, and I also know that you do provide these arguments in many of the discussions, but I think that you become very unpersuasive when its accompanied by clearly antagonistic and hostile comments alongside it.

Your OP this thread does a decent job of doing just this, but you place it right alongside the "random"-ness of these changes, as you call it, which just aligns everything you're saying in this thread with all of your hostile comments in previous EP discussions. How can you possibly expect Zoi to take anything seriously like that?
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I'm not expecting Zoi to take this seriously. I gave up on that. I am by far the most negative here, but I'm not the only one who gave up.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Mitoe »

Well don't give up. We all want the same thing in the end: a better game. That you have more passion for it than many others should be a strength here, not a weakness.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Diarouga used to do a lot for ep. He has probably put in the most time out of all top players.

And tbh, the current state of EP is so laughable that we are way past being respectful. I think we've never had a point where so many people have been this upset about the state of ep. Of course there is always criticism, and there are always people that arent completely happy (like me), but the current state is terrible. The path EP has taken is dividing the community more than ever before. Its not the right way to handle things and after three patches filled with random nonsense I think zoi should step down or be kicked as leader. This isn't just about me disliking the changes, this is about EP rubbing a significant portion of the players in completely the wrong way.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by chronique »

There are so many stuff i think i dont understand. Exemple, it's looks like the xp trickle buff are heavly criticized, so my question is "who have take the decision about change something like that, where i can't see any sort of consensus arround it", i feel like some of change are done without community consulting (maybe i am wrong).

Like the -2 range from AK, i have heard about that yesterday, during EPL. Where are the thread about this change? where are the discussion? where are the arg? from both side?

Maybe i miss something but imo each change need to be explain and debate before realise, and i feel its not the case.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by RefluxSemantic »

Zoi is not really consulting the community at all. Most of these changes have zero testing and almost no discussion behind them, I think that much is clear.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by gamevideo113 »

EP8 was rushed. I’m sure a better job will be done with EP9.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:There are so many stuff i think i dont understand. Exemple, it's looks like the xp trickle buff are heavly criticized, so my question is "who have take the decision about change something like that, where i can't see any sort of consensus arround it", i feel like some of change are done without community consulting (maybe i am wrong).

Like the -2 range from AK, i have heard about that yesterday, during EPL. Where are the thread about this change? where are the discussion? where are the arg? from both side?

Maybe i miss something but imo each change need to be explain and debate before realise, and i feel its not the case.
The community wasn't consulted before the exp trickle change. It's more than "some changes are done without consulting the community", it's all the changes are done without consulting the community. In fact, post tournament polls is the only time when Zoi consults the community.

-2 range from AK was implement in EP 8.1 (a patch that was rushed in 1 week without discussions). You can find the thread here :
viewtopic.php?f=466&t=20065
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by chronique »

Yea i have see that but the patch was done before any sort of consulting (or i miss it).
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:Yea i have see that but the patch was done before any sort of consulting (or i miss it).
Yes.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by RefluxSemantic »

gamevideo113 wrote:EP8 was rushed. I’m sure a better job will be done with EP9.
Feels like EP7 was rushed too.

Its not rushed though. Its just changes being implemented without consensus or testing. That will always seem rushed, no matter how much time you spend on it.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

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Post by bittersalt123 »

Give ashi a speed boost and Yumi a melee bonus vs cav.
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

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Post by Zutazuta »

bittersalt123 wrote:Give ashi a speed boost and Yumi a melee bonus vs cav.
I’m listening
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Zeke »

bittersalt123 wrote:Give ashi a speed boost and Yumi a melee bonus vs cav.
nah, Japanese units are too strong, should just let the golden pavilion have the reverse effect, where u can choose either -15% range att/melee att/-10% hp or -5% unit speed :mrgreen:
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Re: [Top 8] Most random EP changes

Post by Victor_swe »

I would like to call myself proffesional zoi consultant.
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