The best strategy for balancing EP

[Goodspeed]

Considering the passion GS defends Zoi with, and how Zoi is so quiet, I hereby present a theory:

Zoi is a GS alt.

Discuss.

He's probably busy working on EP. It's actually a lot of work.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Whats destructive about this feedback? People are literally offering to spend their free time to fix the mess.. That's the most constructive feedback possible. Yet you dismiss it as negative whining.

The flaming, hyperbole, false narratives (such as "Zoi doesn't listen to feedback" when he demonstrably does), incessant repetition, and most importantly the focus on trying to replace Zoi instead of suggesting how he could improve his process. Oh, and the insistence that anyone who defends him must "worship him like a God". You sound ridiculous.

It reminds one of the false and highly demotivating "H2O is a dictator" sentiment in ESOC's early days.

Not trying to be agressive here, but Zoi was criticized for his EP process a few weeks ago (it started with EP8, then EP8.1), even in a constructive way by people who're rather neutral like the ESOC staff (because you're right to say that I'm biased against Zoi, he ignores me and has me pested, and I totally disagree with his EP policy so I can't be asked to be pro Zoi).
And EP8.2 showed that the situation got worse.

I think that's the big issue here, the situation wasn't ideal to begin with but it's getting worse despite some constructive criticism. Hence, people want to replace Zoi instead of suggesting how he could improve his process.

You're probably going to say that I "play the victim" because it helps your narrative, but when I asked you to demand to Zoi to unpest me and include me in the EP process just after the LAN, you refused to do that and said that I deserved it. Thus, replacing Zoi is actually the only way for me to be included in the EP process, and I kinda tried to "change Zoi's EP process" in a way that would include me, it didn't work.

[Goodspeed]

The constructive criticism has actually had a lot of effect. The latest patch is one result, and I don't doubt that the process will change from here. But if your only goal is to replace Zoi, that isn't constructive. It means you're making no effort to help him improve (which is the definition of constructive feedback), but rather have already written him off.

[n0el]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

[[Armag] diarouga]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

I have no particular issue with EP 8.2, it's overall better than EP8.1, I'm just very annoyed it's released during EPL in such an anti democratic way.
And I'm afraid of the evolution of Aztecs. It's impossible for me to say how big the 2wh nerf is, and you have to keep in mind that Aztec was a mediocre civ before that buff. In the worst scenario, 2wh wouldn't be viable anymore, and Aztec would go back to its EP7 state (with the puma change granted, but it's not enough).

[n0el]

Okay, so we agree on that.

[chronique]

If someone care about my opinion (who are neutral on this kind of internal conflict), the next step is the realization of the alternavie patch, and see how discussions are organized between patch leaders and others rdm ppl like me.

Because at this point, i think, many ppl >> one ppl, for the job, and i can't take GS word for it when he said the opposite.

[RefluxSemantic]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

Here's the problem: Zoi proposes a few dozen of crazy design changes without community support, then when people get upset he reverts some of the least popular ones. Meanwhile, a bunch of these changes slip under the radar and get implemented, despite being unpopular. We're still stuck with a bunch of (stupid) design changes that the community had no word in.

[n0el]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

Here's the problem: Zoi proposes a few dozen of crazy design changes without community support, then when people get upset he reverts some of the least popular ones. Meanwhile, a bunch of these changes slip under the radar and get implemented, despite being unpopular. We're still stuck with a bunch of (stupid) design changes that the community had no word in.

Do you think that zoi talks to no one at all about the changes?

[RefluxSemantic]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

Here's the problem: Zoi proposes a few dozen of crazy design changes without community support, then when people get upset he reverts some of the least popular ones. Meanwhile, a bunch of these changes slip under the radar and get implemented, despite being unpopular. We're still stuck with a bunch of (stupid) design changes that the community had no word in.

Do you think that zoi talks to no one at all about the changes?

I think Zoi mostly talks to people that agree with him. I've never seen him respond meaningfully to anything I've said for example. And he's blocked diarouga.

But that's not the point really. The point is that design changes are subjective, and that it's bad to implement all these design changes without widespread community support. That doesn't mean talking to gamevideo and mitoe, that means actually polling the entire community.

[edeholland]

The danger is that this person loses touch with what the community actually wants. This has not been an issue (yet) because Zoi goes to great lengths to take community feedback into account. And yes, I know the anti-Zoi lobby would have you believe otherwise, but their position has been very unconvincing to me.

It's not just about blatant abuse. A community patch especially also needs to be "of" the community and supported by the community, broadly. That could be achieved by having everyone involved in a substantive, measurable, undeniable way. Such as binding polls etc. That's not nearly the same as, "I'm the patch leader and can do what I want, but if I respect your opinion and like you and you behave nicely, I might listen to you - if I want".

I just don't see any benefit to not having any binding community involvement (binding polls, schedules, announcements). Even if the patch was on its merits 5 % better if Zoi did it on his own (which is very questionable), it seems really bad for the legitimacy of a community patch if it is just a one man project.

The issue is even bigger. According to somppu, EP8 might be implemented in aoe3 DE.

I don't think Somppu is an Age Insider.

[chronique]

You don't need to be insider, u need to know ppl who are insider and hasking them what is the cost of a plantation.

[deleted_user0]

@edeholland
I have sources I won't reveal cause NdA. Believe or not.

[Jotunir]

@[Armag] diarouga what is your issue with EP 8.2? it seems to address the issues that you've been vocal about in EP8. I have my personal issues with implementing new things that aren't existing tweaks, and the timing, but in general it appears the purpose was to address issues raised by you, hazza, and somppu.

Here's the problem: Zoi proposes a few dozen of crazy design changes without community support, then when people get upset he reverts some of the least popular ones. Meanwhile, a bunch of these changes slip under the radar and get implemented, despite being unpopular. We're still stuck with a bunch of (stupid) design changes that the community had no word in.

Which ones?

[Darwin_]

Ok, so I didn't know that viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17351 existed, and now I'm wondering why Zoi never seems to use this data and instead relies on feedback forms? Like this is cut and dry data that is extremely telling to certain trends (for example, india had a really low winrate last tourney, even in Pro and Advanced divisions, and pro players essentially never picked ports) that would be valuable to address. Instead of presenting random changes, why doesn't the authority behind EP look at the DATA, identify issues that warrant being solved, and present solutions to these issues???

[BrookG]

Ok, so I didn't know that viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17351 existed, and now I'm wondering why Zoi never seems to use this data and instead relies on feedback forms? Like this is cut and dry data that is extremely telling to certain trends (for example, india had a really low winrate last tourney, even in Pro and Advanced divisions, and pro players essentially never picked ports) that would be valuable to address. Instead of presenting random changes, why doesn't the authority behind EP look at the DATA, identify issues that warrant being solved, and present solutions to these issues???

A motivation for me to collect these data was exactly to contribute in a better EP design.
Apparently, that was not enough.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ok, so I didn't know that viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17351 existed, and now I'm wondering why Zoi never seems to use this data and instead relies on feedback forms? Like this is cut and dry data that is extremely telling to certain trends (for example, india had a really low winrate last tourney, even in Pro and Advanced divisions, and pro players essentially never picked ports) that would be valuable to address. Instead of presenting random changes, why doesn't the authority behind EP look at the DATA, identify issues that warrant being solved, and present solutions to these issues???

This should be considered a bit more but considering the low amount of games, the skill difference between players, the maps etc, you can't really draw conclusions on balance, just on player tendencies.

[Darwin_]

Ok, so I didn't know that viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17351 existed, and now I'm wondering why Zoi never seems to use this data and instead relies on feedback forms? Like this is cut and dry data that is extremely telling to certain trends (for example, india had a really low winrate last tourney, even in Pro and Advanced divisions, and pro players essentially never picked ports) that would be valuable to address. Instead of presenting random changes, why doesn't the authority behind EP look at the DATA, identify issues that warrant being solved, and present solutions to these issues???

A motivation for me to collect these data was exactly to contribute in a better EP design.
Apparently, that was not enough.

It really is unfortunate. I'm amazed at how much data you collected, its really impressive.

This should be considered a bit more but considering the low amount of games, the skill difference between players, the maps etc, you can't really draw conclusions on balance, just on player tendencies.

There were not a ton of games, but some of the trends are just so massive, such as previously mentioned india winrate, Iro's 70% winrate, Ports' 0.4% pick rate, etc... But, the data from the last tournament is pretty valuable because we had the Pro and Advanced divisions, which should help the data from not being too affected by skill differences.

[BrookG]

Ok, so I didn't know that viewtopic.php?f=19&t=17351 existed, and now I'm wondering why Zoi never seems to use this data and instead relies on feedback forms? Like this is cut and dry data that is extremely telling to certain trends (for example, india had a really low winrate last tourney, even in Pro and Advanced divisions, and pro players essentially never picked ports) that would be valuable to address. Instead of presenting random changes, why doesn't the authority behind EP look at the DATA, identify issues that warrant being solved, and present solutions to these issues???

This should be considered a bit more but considering the low amount of games, the skill difference between players, the maps etc, you can't really draw conclusions on balance, just on player tendencies.

True, but the thing is if you have a low pick frequency, you can tell that players consider that civ weak. Or overpicking on non-tp maps etc
These data are the closest we get to playtesting

[bittersalt123]

The best strategy is to simply stop what you guys are doing and change everything to the Garja patch.

[chronique]

Statistic =/= statistic interpretation. Maybe iro have 70% winrate because iro is op on 1 map or a specific mu. You need to take in consideration every mu on every map and PR gap (i have tried to do that with ladder data but my computeur can't handle it ^^).

[BrookG]

Statistic =/= statistic interpretation. Maybe iro have 70% winrate because iro is op on 1 map or a specific mu. You need to take in consideration every mu on every map and PR gap (i have tried to do that with ladder data but my computeur can't handle it ^^).

Im not saying it's everything. I was pressured a lot to include winrates, considering the amount of games and the variety of the skill, it can't say much. As I said though, we can observe trends from picks in general, with respect to maps and so on. It's the only source were high level players will test EP changes. The traffic in betas isn't very big.

[chronique]

Im not saying it's everything. I was pressured a lot to include winrates, considering the amount of games and the variety of the skill, it can't say much. As I said though, we can observe trends from picks in general, with respect to maps and so on. It's the only source were high level players will test EP changes. The traffic in betas isn't very big.

I was responding to darwin

[Darwin_]

Im not saying it's everything. I was pressured a lot to include winrates, considering the amount of games and the variety of the skill, it can't say much. As I said though, we can observe trends from picks in general, with respect to maps and so on. It's the only source were high level players will test EP changes. The traffic in betas isn't very big.

I was responding to darwin

I agree with what brook said for the most part.

[Victor_swe]

When u people gonna learn. It goes like this
Zoi
Garja
Pencilpower
Rest of us.

Just let zoi decide whats best for us.