Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Re: Somppu apology thread

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Post by robo »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:The best way to prevent this from happening is to set a "sentence" that is enough to discourage people from doing that.
Obviously, banning people from EPL 3 is not enough, hazza didn't care, and Somppu expected the same thing to happen.

It's easy to say what the best solution was after something happens, but imo the admins should have been more explicit about the punishment for forfeiting on purpose. Like if Somppu and hazza knew that they would get a 6 month tournament ban, then they probably wouldn't have done that.
On top of that, it makes the decisions less arbitraty. Admins can then say that it was written in the rules that you'd get a 6 month ban.
At this moment, the only thing that's written in the rules is "Failure to complete matches consistently may result in being barred from entrance in future ESOC tournaments.", and it's not enough.

Finally, I think that they should issue warnings before punishing the players. It's too late now, but I'm quite sure that somppu wouldn't have forfeited if they told him he'd get banned for 6 months then, and let him 24hours to consider it.
Coming from an outside perspective of admining aoe2 tournaments, I am heavily against having set punishments for relatively major infractions such as this, minor things such as showing up late, or bad scheduling, sure it makes sense to lose x% of your prizemoney or whatever.

If a player sees & knows what the punishment is and still willingly breaks the rules, then they have judged that the punishment is not harsh enough and it is still in their interest to break the rules.
Going only off of what has been said in this thread, Somppu (apparently) saw Hazzas punishment and still went through with forfeiting his matches and screwing over his team, therefore a more strict punishment makes sense and is in the best interest of preventing this happening again in the future.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by zoom »

princeofcarthage wrote:
zoom wrote:At this point it's undeniable that Cuckoo's behavior is disrespectful. However, if he did indeed have a reasonably timely change of heart, wouldn't it be in ESOC's firm interest to commute his penalty to a warning? I just struggle to see how there are any non-moral benefits to this outcome. It's entirely possible that I'm missing something, though.
This is 2nd time he has thrown tantrums in 2 weeks, ESOC even got bullied into allowing him to play against much lower opponent. Moderation would be a joke if entire decision were to be reversed at this point though 6 months ban could be commuted I guess.

I also think there needs to be some standardized procedure for players quiting/dq. Like resignation should explicitly be accepted by PM's and not by forum or discord posts. Upon initial resignation/PM, player should be made aware of consequences of actions and 24 hrs should be given for change of mind before locking it in stone. I think.
It's only the second time!?

I'm confident in cometk's ability to make a reasonable decision; I just wanted to add a perspective that might have been overlooked, to help him make that decision.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

robo wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The best way to prevent this from happening is to set a "sentence" that is enough to discourage people from doing that.
Obviously, banning people from EPL 3 is not enough, hazza didn't care, and Somppu expected the same thing to happen.

It's easy to say what the best solution was after something happens, but imo the admins should have been more explicit about the punishment for forfeiting on purpose. Like if Somppu and hazza knew that they would get a 6 month tournament ban, then they probably wouldn't have done that.
On top of that, it makes the decisions less arbitraty. Admins can then say that it was written in the rules that you'd get a 6 month ban.
At this moment, the only thing that's written in the rules is "Failure to complete matches consistently may result in being barred from entrance in future ESOC tournaments.", and it's not enough.

Finally, I think that they should issue warnings before punishing the players. It's too late now, but I'm quite sure that somppu wouldn't have forfeited if they told him he'd get banned for 6 months then, and let him 24hours to consider it.
Coming from an outside perspective of admining aoe2 tournaments, I am heavily against having set punishments for relatively major infractions such as this, minor things such as showing up late, or bad scheduling, sure it makes sense to lose x% of your prizemoney or whatever.

If a player sees & knows what the punishment is and still willingly breaks the rules, then they have judged that the punishment is not harsh enough and it is still in their interest to break the rules.
Going only off of what has been said in this thread, Somppu (apparently) saw Hazzas punishment and still went through with forfeiting his matches and screwing over his team, therefore a more strict punishment makes sense and is in the best interest of preventing this happening again in the future.
I agree with this, the punishment wasn't strong enough, but it's not fair to set a different punishment for hazza and somppu when they did the same thing.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by princeofkabul »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
robo wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The best way to prevent this from happening is to set a "sentence" that is enough to discourage people from doing that.
Obviously, banning people from EPL 3 is not enough, hazza didn't care, and Somppu expected the same thing to happen.

It's easy to say what the best solution was after something happens, but imo the admins should have been more explicit about the punishment for forfeiting on purpose. Like if Somppu and hazza knew that they would get a 6 month tournament ban, then they probably wouldn't have done that.
On top of that, it makes the decisions less arbitraty. Admins can then say that it was written in the rules that you'd get a 6 month ban.
At this moment, the only thing that's written in the rules is "Failure to complete matches consistently may result in being barred from entrance in future ESOC tournaments.", and it's not enough.

Finally, I think that they should issue warnings before punishing the players. It's too late now, but I'm quite sure that somppu wouldn't have forfeited if they told him he'd get banned for 6 months then, and let him 24hours to consider it.
Coming from an outside perspective of admining aoe2 tournaments, I am heavily against having set punishments for relatively major infractions such as this, minor things such as showing up late, or bad scheduling, sure it makes sense to lose x% of your prizemoney or whatever.

If a player sees & knows what the punishment is and still willingly breaks the rules, then they have judged that the punishment is not harsh enough and it is still in their interest to break the rules.
Going only off of what has been said in this thread, Somppu (apparently) saw Hazzas punishment and still went through with forfeiting his matches and screwing over his team, therefore a more strict punishment makes sense and is in the best interest of preventing this happening again in the future.
I agree with this, the punishment wasn't strong enough, but it's not fair to set a different punishment for hazza and somppu when they did the same thing.
not exactly.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by zoom »

robo wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The best way to prevent this from happening is to set a "sentence" that is enough to discourage people from doing that.
Obviously, banning people from EPL 3 is not enough, hazza didn't care, and Somppu expected the same thing to happen.

It's easy to say what the best solution was after something happens, but imo the admins should have been more explicit about the punishment for forfeiting on purpose. Like if Somppu and hazza knew that they would get a 6 month tournament ban, then they probably wouldn't have done that.
On top of that, it makes the decisions less arbitraty. Admins can then say that it was written in the rules that you'd get a 6 month ban.
At this moment, the only thing that's written in the rules is "Failure to complete matches consistently may result in being barred from entrance in future ESOC tournaments.", and it's not enough.

Finally, I think that they should issue warnings before punishing the players. It's too late now, but I'm quite sure that somppu wouldn't have forfeited if they told him he'd get banned for 6 months then, and let him 24hours to consider it.
Coming from an outside perspective of admining aoe2 tournaments, I am heavily against having set punishments for relatively major infractions such as this, minor things such as showing up late, or bad scheduling, sure it makes sense to lose x% of your prizemoney or whatever.

If a player sees & knows what the punishment is and still willingly breaks the rules, then they have judged that the punishment is not harsh enough and it is still in their interest to break the rules.
Going only off of what has been said in this thread, Somppu (apparently) saw Hazzas punishment and still went through with forfeiting his matches and screwing over his team, therefore a more strict punishment makes sense and is in the best interest of preventing this happening again in the future.
While you may have a point, you may also be overestimating the relevance of consequences to emotional or impulsive actions.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by Astaroth »

sebnan12 wrote:just allow me to fuking play
Why aren't you allowed?
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by robo »

zoom wrote:While you may have a point, you may also be overestimating the relevance of consequences to emotional or impulsive actions.
If your emotional/impulsive action is to quit a tournament for a pretty minor reason then they should work on tempering their impulse and take sometime before ragequitting a tournament.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by Imperial Noob »

zoom wrote:
Imperial Noob wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Don't bully. Zoom is more right here than in EP.
Patch development isn't a matter of right or wrong; it's about collecting and understanding information, and understanding what changes to make to achieve a certain effect, given the available information. The idea of the process that you present – whether or not it's yours – demonstrates the tendency of individuals to conflate fact with (their) opinion. This is especially problematic when there are many conflicting opinions and none of them are precise, which is the case with something as complex and relative as AoE3 balance. You're entirely entitled to your opinion, whatever it is, and regardless I will continue extensively gathering feedback to ensure that balance, popularity and viability (of core game-features) continues to improve, in the overall view of the patch's player-base.

That's all the off-topic you'll get from me, ITT, though.
Lol mister logic, put some more thought into it and you will see that there are at least three different scenarios where my comment is philosophically applicable, with two of them even being complimentary of your work. Your response to my comment is bizarre, so maybe Harrison was right after all...
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by GiBthedurrty »

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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by bobabu »

robo wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:The best way to prevent this from happening is to set a "sentence" that is enough to discourage people from doing that.
Obviously, banning people from EPL 3 is not enough, hazza didn't care, and Somppu expected the same thing to happen.

It's easy to say what the best solution was after something happens, but imo the admins should have been more explicit about the punishment for forfeiting on purpose. Like if Somppu and hazza knew that they would get a 6 month tournament ban, then they probably wouldn't have done that.
On top of that, it makes the decisions less arbitraty. Admins can then say that it was written in the rules that you'd get a 6 month ban.
At this moment, the only thing that's written in the rules is "Failure to complete matches consistently may result in being barred from entrance in future ESOC tournaments.", and it's not enough.

Finally, I think that they should issue warnings before punishing the players. It's too late now, but I'm quite sure that somppu wouldn't have forfeited if they told him he'd get banned for 6 months then, and let him 24hours to consider it.
Coming from an outside perspective of admining aoe2 tournaments, I am heavily against having set punishments for relatively major infractions such as this, minor things such as showing up late, or bad scheduling, sure it makes sense to lose x% of your prizemoney or whatever.

If a player sees & knows what the punishment is and still willingly breaks the rules, then they have judged that the punishment is not harsh enough and it is still in their interest to break the rules.
Going only off of what has been said in this thread, Somppu (apparently) saw Hazzas punishment and still went through with forfeiting his matches and screwing over his team, therefore a more strict punishment makes sense and is in the best interest of preventing this happening again in the future.

What you are proposing is arbitrary and contradicts legal principles. Because laws have to be somewhat predictable. You can, however, change the law now and then act differently in the future. For somppu's case, it's too late. I'm aware that we are talking about a contract and not law principles, however, I feel like this perspective offers a different viewpoint. Even if we take for what it is a contract you can't merely rewrite rules to fit your agenda. Esoc doesn't have unlimited freedom.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Hi Somppu, thanks for the statement/apology,

On behalf of the tournament admins, I will explain your perspective, our perspective, my role in our decision, and how we will move forward.

Let's start with your perspective. You indeed scheduled on Saturday originally. Unfortunately, Forjustice wasn't able to play through no fault of his own. These things happen and although it is a shame your preparation on Saturday partly went to waste, there is nothing any party could have done differently here. Rescheduling to a weekday was a possibility, but due to preparation both of you insisted on Sunday.

Moving on to the games, the lag was indeed bad. Forjustice had some questionable resign timings. We can all agree on this. Here's where you, in our opinion, went wrong. Rule 4.2 states that "Players and caster(s) may request that measures be taken to reduce lag". Rule 1.4 states that "Every player must respect their opponent (...) will result in a warning and can lead to disqualification. Forjustice's resignation timings were arguably disrespectful. If we assume that they were, then rule 1.4 states that a warning will be issued by tournament admins. This part of the rule is inexplicit, but it means that the player does not take matters into his own hands. This is exactly what you did, and this is why we took the actions that we did. It is clear that you were in a winning position in game 2, but resigning there was not the right decision to take. I'm sorry to say it and I hope I do not convey this too offensively, but your behavior in that game was ridiculous and we do not want to encourage and normalize ridiculous behavior like that. "Turking" occasionally occurs, but it does mean that the turking player is always doing this to antagonize his opponent. There are times where a player may not realize how behind he is. What happens if precedent is set and people start resigning in a winning position more often? Where do you draw the line? It is safer to leave the authority to enforce rules with the tournament admins, and not with the players.

In your fury, you forfeited from EPL. Forfeiting the EPL is a serious offense that is not lightly tolerated. To quote Comet: "The rules clearly state that if a player is not capable of maintaining a competitive attitude even when their team may no longer be in the playoffs picture that they should not sign up to play in the EPL. This forfeiture is a slap in the face to everyone involved in the league, from organizers to players to viewers alike." Forfeiting in a team tournament with these round-robin rules undermines the team, the points previously scored, the points that will be scored in the future - essentially the entire league.

Both you and Hazza are guilty of this offense. This is where the comparison ends. Looking at the facts only, we can see that you insulted your opponent repeatedly in the lobby, disrespected your opponent repeatedly in-game and post-game, insulted your teammates, insulted staff, created inflammatory posts on the forums, and undermined the integrity of the league. You cannot blame all of this on your bad decision making at 4 AM. We have to live with the choices we make, even if some of them turn out to be poor ones, even if some of them were made under extreme circumstances. In our opinion, a case of force majeure is out of the question.

We also made mistakes. The disqualification rules contain a disciplinary procedure. We did not follow this procedure, and frankly, we have not done so for a long time. The goal of the disciplinary procedure for misbehavior during casted games is to stop offending behavior in its tracks and to maintain a relatively good relationship with the player in question. Our course of action to award the admin win to Forjustice with no communication towards you was wrong. I will work to improve our procedure and to use it in all cases from now on.

Therefore I believe it is fair to say that your fury is partly our fault. I apologize for that on behalf of myself and the other tournament admins.

As for me personally, it is impossible to be unbiased. All humans are biased in some sort of way, usually for the worse. The only thing we can do is actively try to diminish this bias and work together with the rest of the team to filter out each others' biases. We can blind ourselves with the illusion that all tournament staff, police officers, and judges are completely unbiased, but in reality, this is not the case. Nevertheless, I do not agree with the following statement.
SomppuKunkku wrote:Bram's comment wasn't to this OP but in general I feel he has always disrespected me and treated me unfairly compared to others. Also in the past. I don't why he is always been against me.
I met you at the Amsterdam LAN in 2018. We hung out and we had a great time with the others. I adored the sepoy/urumi playstyle (even winning tournament games with the strategy) and I loved to see what kind of crazy strategies you could come up with.

That's the old Somppu. In the past two weeks, your name has become synonymous with vitriol. Your EP criticism may be partly justified, but do you not think you are taking this a little bit too far? Do you not think that there are better ways to resolve this dispute than the way you have chosen to go for? When I think of the name SomppuKunkku, I want to think of inventive strategies and funky playstyles, not of toxicity and anger.

That's the reason Comet and I called you a crybaby at some point. The constant aura of negativity gets tiring eventually, especially when I'm trying not to descend into the same spiral of negativity in these quarantined times. We need the community undivided now more than ever. It was not respectful of me to showcase internal comments you made in GUAs twitch chat and I apologize for that. I slipped up having seen you complain for the past few hours while completely derailing the stream.

I don't think I have been 'disrespecting you for years'. It seems highly unlikely that I wouldn't have noticed that in all those years. Not even two weeks ago we were having friendly discussion about EP. Not even three weeks ago we were discussing how to proceed with SKG after the Hazza-incident. I can assure you that I am not actively biased against you, even if my obtuse choice of words may sometimes give that impression. And next to that I can assure you that, even if I was, I work together with the other tournament admins who would keep me in line. I have never seen a more diplomatic and unbiased person than Brook. Cometk explained in an earlier post why we decided on 6 months originally. I hope you can understand my supposed bias is non-existent and had nothing to do with the decision.

Moving forward, we will amend the tournament ban into a shorter and partly suspended sentence in the following days. We will also improve our disciplinary procedures for our tournaments. I hope this answers any questions or concerns you may still have, but feel free to ask any remaining questions.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by bittersalt123 »

damn rekt
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Re: Somppu apology thread

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Post by deleted_user0 »

Hi, thanks for saying atleast something.

Thank you for clarification but your statements include still lies.
"insulted your teammates,"
This part relies on a 1-minute argument with miggo where I said "u dumb" and he told me I'm a little whining crybitch. I don't know any other insult so I don't know why you're writing in plural.
"Insulted staff"
Where? I might have said negative things but so has staff insulted me and told lies in statements, at least you apologized for your spreading inside conversations. However, you can do whatever you want unpunished but you are taking a majority of future events away, does not really matter if the ban is is only for summer tournament and EPL3, that's probably still half of the remaining events before DE.
"inflammatory posts on the forums"
What exactly? Could you please show at least a few example

Also Cometks previous longer message included lies like that I blackmailed two times admins by forfeit which is simply not true.

During last days you two have spread enormous amount of lies/misleading statements about me. You two are totally corrupted. You do it intentionally to make yourself look better. Brookg is the only not corrupted one out of you. Maybe he is more mature due to age.

I understand that after all these actions many of you have felt the right to insult me here, it's fine. However, somebody also sent me a few hours ago an anonymous discord message linking me social media ccount of my real-life family member and sending insulting comments about them. There are probably tens of people who it could be so it's quite impossible to say, tho I have some strong suspects.

I have behaved wrong but also admins have done terrible work being a part of people bullying me and spreading lies about me. Seems like as compensation for their own mistakes and due to common public opinion, they're willing to reduce the ban but I would still miss most of events. And honestly - I feel I don't even deserve the ban. I still tried to do the right thing in the end, fix it 12 hours later.

Due to some people creeping my family, I have asked them to remove my forum account as I don't want somebody digging my old messages and hopefully they will do as I request.

This will be my last message to the forums.
Maybe I will come back to DE under different name, staying more anonymous.
I hope Admins do respect not storming more lies as I won't be here to defend them and I hope Macenator stays out of this topic (I really hope it wasn't you....)

I have deleted my discord, twitch and hopefully at some point my request to delete my forum account and all data applies.
Big thanks to @BrookG @princeofkabul @Hazza54321 @Guigs @lordraphael erik + probably a few I forget. with you I would like to keep contact also outside high plains.

Special remarks to mace for constantly harassing and provoking me, those who have responded to my arguments against EP by insulting me constantly, cometk and bramboy for driving me away from community by ban and constantly making lies about my actions, those who wants better patch: you make important work, and this little cunt who nails the final coffin by sending me social media of my sister can go fuck himself.



Edit: Updated to OP. I hope it's not a Bramboy trap, Eagle.
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Re: Somppu apology thread

Post by bobabu »

Well, you need to be a bit more precise about what he is getting punished for. You should take the forfeiture and his behaviour apart and judge them individually. The problem is that his behaviour has nothing to do with his forfeiture or at least is not leading to the forfeiture so you creating a lot of confusion by taking them together.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

Post by bittersalt123 »

Well that was fun.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Post by BrookG »

Locked for now, until things settle down a bit and I get a hold of the situation. Pm me for questions

EDIT: Unlocked
Correlation doesn't mean causation.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Post by princeofkabul »

Just want to correct few things in bramboy's post.

As a manager of SKG, I do not tolerate any kind of bullying inside of the team, even if the member is a good friend of mine. If I would have saw this happen myself, I would have acted on it.
Not only your statement is false that somppu has insulted "teammates" is completely false (implying that it has been going for longer and affecting multiple members) it also discredits my capabilities as a manager for allowing such thing happen in the first place, when it didn't. I've worked in jobs that rely on teamwork very much, and constant positive hype is something that is necessary for results, same kind of method applies when managing your own team, even if we're talking just about aoe3.

It is true Somppu had one vocal arguement with miggo, and I can assure everyone of you it was nothing you don't see in the forums or twitch chat of aoe 3 every single day. I'm certain miggo doesn't feel bad of petty "insult" as "you're dumb". nor does he feel that he has been bullied. What somppu did was annoy him of a game where he beat miggo before, and miggo responded that Somppu's a whiner. that's pretty much it.

Im not comment on anything else. You concluded it pretty well yourself, Somppu acted very bad, admins were not acting accordingly and mistakes were made in both sides.

But this is something which is false in your post.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

Post by Challenger_Marco »

Man he really deleted the esoc forum acc
:nwc:
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

Post by Timurid »

i know i am not a regular poster, just an audience. I think Hazza should have gotten 1month ban and sommpu 2month. not saying hazza should be banned now.. just consider lowering sommpus ban to two months after this league ends+from next EPL. IF SKG team is on board with Sompu playing out rest of the season that is. Otherwise SKG doesnt stand a chance, which feels bad.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Post by iNcog »

I really like Prince
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

Post by bittersalt123 »

Challenger_Marco wrote:Man he really deleted the esoc forum acc
Give it a week he'll be back.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Post by Rikikipu »

Honestly a lot of people know that we don't have had a big romancy with my loving sompu, but I feel quite sad that after trying to apologies ( which seemed to be sincere) he still get banned plus also some people start attacking him on irl stuff which is the most trash thing you can do.
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

Post by Mitoe »

I heard that Bramboy was trying to talk to him to lessen the punishment, but Somppu quit right before he could do that. :(
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Re: Somppu apology thread

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Post by Goodspeed »

Top players and tournament rules have proven to be a bad combination in AoE3. If anything, the fact that it continues to be an issue shows punishments haven't been harsh enough. I think this one is perfectly proportionate all things considered. 6 months is not a long time at all. It's effectively a ban from the next major event (plus the next EPL), which seems fair to me.

The community response is, I imagine, as demotivating as always. Keep up the good work guys.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
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Re: Somppu apology/leaving scene

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Post by RefluxSemantic »

The issue isn't that the punishments aren't harsh enough. The issue is that we pretend to be professionals while we are all amateurs. People will always choose for real life over the game, because it's not our profession. That's exactly what happened here too. We tried to be this professional team league, which puts a shitload of pressures on the players in the first place. People playing as well as they can week in week out, that's a lot of pressure. That's going to burn out some people. You can point at the fact that they should not have signed up, but life circumstances might change in unforseen ways, you might suddenly be tilted about the game or you might suddenly lose motivation. That's already a big problem.

Then what happened here was that Somppu agreed to play at an unfortunate time. It clearly got him into some personal troubles. He went out of his way to accomodate forjustice, after this guy didn't show up the day before (which he kept free for him). Next up, forjustice starts being really bm about his resign timings. That's just extremely disrespectful and Somppu obviously got very annoyed. He was playing at a bad time for him and needed this series to not drag on too long, and forjustice was just dragging it out on purpose. I'd be furious too. The right thing to do was to call in the admins, and explain to them that he needed to get going because of all the delays forjustice had caused. But I suppose somppu didn't see this possibility, and he resigned out of rage. It's very understandable in my opinion. He expected forjustice to get punished, because in his eyes forjustice was being super bad mannered - and honestly he really was being an utter piece of shit. Forjustice didn't get punished, which was understandable, and this tilted somppu. This is also understandable. As far as I can gather, forjustice wasted his saturday, then dragged on the games at a super bad time for him, which seemingly caused him to get into some real life trouble too. I'd be fuming. Out of rage, he tells the admins he quits.

The next morning he's been banned for 6 months from basically all tournaments until DE. He tries to explain to the admins that it was out of rage and that he wants to continue playing for the tournament and the viewers. The admins don't listen. This last part is honestly strange to me. If you look at the context, it's simply immature to point at the rules without trying to understand the context. We're not professionals, we're human beings. When some guy is wasting your time, you're going to get angry. This is not time that you get paid for, this is a hobby. When we start acting like this is our profession, that's when things start going wrong. That is the problem. It's not the players, it's not the punishments, it's the part where we pretend that these players are professionals that will do anything to satisfy the admins.

And now we have it. EPL2's integrity is ruined, and this could have easily been prevented.

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