New Parfait video

[bobabu]

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

[bobabu]

Well in aoe3 your opponent can snare your explorer and kill it, that's the same thing.

Well this is just one aspect. Besides as we both know it takes a long time to kill a scout. Snares can even be escaped and a lot of times you can simply walk back to your base without your opponent killing your scout even if you don't know how to escape a snare.

[n0el]

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

What? Luring a boar is not micro intensive. Neither game is micro intensive, but both have similar amounts of actions going on, aoe3 slightly more depending on the map and matchup.

[RefluxSemantic]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I don't agree. This point came up in the section where he discussed the reduction in micro-management. I don't think it's cherry picking when I'm attacking the exact point he's making. There were many ways to make his point, and it's probably right, and this stuff about scouting is actually interesting, but the way he does it is just bad. It ends up being an incoherent, mostly incorrect mess.

[bobabu]

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

What? Luring a boar is not micro intensive. Neither game is micro intensive, but both have similar amounts of actions going on, aoe3 slightly more depending on the map and matchup.

No Age of Empires 2 starts of much more micro intensive. Since you have to handle a lot of units at the same time. It's not unusual to start off with several control groups to even handle Age1. Something which isn't necessary for Age3. It's not just about the boar. Your vills will bump into each other and you will have to correct it manually. Simply doesn't happen as often in Age 3.

[bobabu]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I don't agree. This point came up in the section where he discussed the reduction in micro-management. I don't think it's cherry picking when I'm attacking the exact point he's making. There were many ways to make his point, and it's probably right, and this stuff about scouting is actually interesting, but the way he does it is just bad. It ends up being an incoherent, mostly incorrect mess.

Yes but he is right especially in the beginning micromanagement was reduced. The game starts off slower there are fewer clicks you have to make in Age of Empires 3. What he fails to bring to light is that with the larger army mass that age 3, provides it becomes more micro intensive.

[Dolan]

It's not just about the boar. Your vills will bump into each other and you will have to correct it manually. Simply doesn't happen as often in Age 3.

AOE2 is more micro intensive here because the game engine is much worse, so unit movements are much more awkward and error-prone. Pathing is just much worse in AOE2 than in AOE3. So, ofc, this forces you to spend more effort into managing vills and units in general. Which doesn't make the game superior to AOE3, lol, as some people claim.

[Goodspeed]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I don't agree. This point came up in the section where he discussed the reduction in micro-management. I don't think it's cherry picking when I'm attacking the exact point he's making. There were many ways to make his point, and it's probably right, and this stuff about scouting is actually interesting, but the way he does it is just bad. It ends up being an incoherent, mostly incorrect mess.

I meant that you cherry picked one example he made to illustrate his point, and then pretended his point rested only on that one example.

"in aoe2 you can lose your explorer to a town center", that's his argument for why it's harder in aoe2. This is just horseshit.

not running your scout into an enemy TC is not a large micromanagement burden.. There isn't really much discussion possible.

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC

[Kaiserklein]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I have to disagree here. There's quite often choices you have to make with your explorer, especially in transition to colo / in early colo.

In a lot of match ups, you kind of need to know what the opponent does asap. Typically vs otto, you need to scout if they age with the tower or with 400w already. You also may want to scout how many houses they have (only the starting house means a ff, regardless of the age up politician), or a potential front base.
But meanwhile, if you're e.g germany, you also want to grab a trading post. So it's a tradeoff. Same goes with taking treasures versus scouting.

There's other decisions earlier in the game. For example do you need to keep your explo high hp, because you precisely want to grab a TP / scout your opponent, or can you afford to go heavy on the treasure picking? Do you want to prioritize finding livestock or treasures? Or prioritize hunting down the opponent's explorer? Also more generally speaking, the scouting pattern in age 1, and somewhere in there, finding your next hunt location.


Not saying all this is extremely complicated, but it's surely an underestimated part of strategy. I remember TLS going for 5 bows 5 pikes semi as germany instead of FFing, because he didn't scout the otto tower age up, and then straight up dying to the all in fortress push. Not taking the right decisions with your explorer in the early game can be literally game losing.

[Goodspeed]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I have to disagree here. There's quite often choices you have to make with your explorer, especially in transition to colo / in early colo.

In a lot of match ups, you kind of need to know what the opponent does asap. Typically vs otto, you need to scout if they age with the tower or with 400w already. You also may want to scout how many houses they have (only the starting house means a ff, regardless of the age up politician), or a potential front base.
But meanwhile, if you're e.g germany, you also want to grab a trading post. So it's a tradeoff. Same goes with taking treasures versus scouting.

There's other decisions earlier in the game. For example do you need to keep your explo high hp, because you precisely want to grab a TP / scout your opponent, or can you afford to go heavy on the treasure picking? Do you want to prioritize finding livestock or treasures? Or prioritize hunting down the opponent's explorer? Also more generally speaking, the scouting pattern in age 1, and somewhere in there, finding your next hunt location.


Not saying all this is extremely complicated, but it's surely an underestimated part of strategy. I remember TLS going for 5 bows 5 pikes semi as germany instead of FFing, because he didn't scout the otto tower age up, and then straight up dying to the all in fortress push. Not taking the right decisions with your explorer in the early game can be literally game losing.

Parfait's point was about dark age versus discovery age scouting. There are a lot more things to do with your scout past the first age in AoE2 as well, but this isn't what we're talking about. The other stuff you mention is quite minor compared to the fundamental "how do I use my scout this game?" question you run into in AoE2. "Keeping your scout high HP or not" is a thing in both games. Your AoE2 scout can become an attacking unit in feudal age.

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah I mean that's basically discovery age scouting to me. Plus 30 seconds if you want

[Goodspeed]

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

What? Luring a boar is not micro intensive. Neither game is micro intensive, but both have similar amounts of actions going on, aoe3 slightly more depending on the map and matchup.

Really? By my estimate, there are about three or four times as many necessary actions in AoE2 dark age compared to AoE3 discovery. In AoE3 you can literally rub one out in discovery age and still have a good game.

[RefluxSemantic]

@RefluxSemantic You're cherry picking. The more important point he made about scouting in AoE2 is that there are multiple uses for your scout, and the decision on how to use it can be very impactful.

As far as I know (though I'm pretty shit at the game) there are 3 main uses:
- Scouting your own map. This is important if you want to wall, or want to decide whether or not to wall based on your map spawn.
- Herding deer. This gives a pretty nice early game food boost.
- Scouting your opponent's map. This is important if you're looking to attack them, or want to decide whether or not you want to attack them based on their map spawn.

Importantly, you can't do all 3. In AoE3, you really don't face this choice because the map is much smaller and scouting around your and your opponent's bases in the early game is not important. By 8 min game time you should have all the important stuff scouted no matter what, as long as your scout isn't idle half the game. The only real strategic choice is where to go for treasures.

I don't agree. This point came up in the section where he discussed the reduction in micro-management. I don't think it's cherry picking when I'm attacking the exact point he's making. There were many ways to make his point, and it's probably right, and this stuff about scouting is actually interesting, but the way he does it is just bad. It ends up being an incoherent, mostly incorrect mess.

I meant that you cherry picked one example he made to illustrate his point, and then pretended his point rested only on that one example.

"in aoe2 you can lose your explorer to a town center", that's his argument for why it's harder in aoe2. This is just horseshit.

not running your scout into an enemy TC is not a large micromanagement burden.. There isn't really much discussion possible.

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC

I keep hammering on this because this is the only actual example he uses for the reduced micromanagement. It's just stupid, I have no other words for this.

[samwise12]

Show hidden quotes

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

What? Luring a boar is not micro intensive. Neither game is micro intensive, but both have similar amounts of actions going on, aoe3 slightly more depending on the map and matchup.

Really? By my estimate, there are about three or four times as many necessary actions in AoE2 dark age compared to AoE3 discovery. In AoE3 you can literally rub one out in discovery age and still have a good game.

I've played a fair bit of AOE2 and honestly dark age is not more difficult than aoe3 discovery. It takes abit more time to get it down since you should be scouting with 2-3 groups of sheep as well as your scout at the start, but after that it's not micro intense at all. You clearly aren't doing enough of the right things in AOE3 discovery if you think you can rub one out... although thinking back to our games this does make alot of sense.

[bobabu]

It's not just about the boar. Your vills will bump into each other and you will have to correct it manually. Simply doesn't happen as often in Age 3.

AOE2 is more micro intensive here because the game engine is much worse, so unit movements are much more awkward and error-prone. Pathing is just much worse in AOE2 than in AOE3. So, ofc, this forces you to spend more effort into managing vills and units in general. Which doesn't make the game superior to AOE3, lol, as some people claim.

Yes, it has nothing to do with superiority. I actually dislike it a lot and often get frustrated when I play Age of Empires 2. I mean there was a time in Age of Empires where you couldn't even q farms. You had to reseed each farm manually. Age of Empires 2 de made quite a few trade-offs and in a way went closer to Age of Empires 3. Before the de I simply couldn't play Age of Empires 2 now that's it's closer to Age of Empires 3 it's much more playable and actually, for most people more enjoyable. The hotkeys they added are the same as in Age of Empires 3. In my opinion Age of Empires 3 has always been in many ways a superior game compared to Age of Empires 2 and even compared to Age of Empires 2 de that released recently. I mean just imagine in Age of Empires 3 you can manage your home cities while being in a game look at other hosted games, look at your clan, send private messages, quick search and check the lobby at the same time. The statistics at the end of the game have great details like the number of vills you lost and more. I mean in age 2 de you can't quick search and at the same time look at the lobby browser. There are a lot of points where Age of Empires IV should orient itself around Age of Empires 3.

[RefluxSemantic]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

[bobabu]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

Macro isn't about the clicks. Macro is more about how many vills you put on food, wood, gold and stone and when. You can send your vills from left to right because you don't have a good macro and you will end up using more clicks. Managing eco isn't equal to macro at all.

[Goodspeed]

Show hidden quotes

You're missing the point. He's saying age 1 is more micro-intensive in aoe2 because you might run your scout into a TC, and then completely ignores the fact that treasure creeping exists. Neither thing is very micro-intensive anyways, it's a bad example to begin with but it's an even worse example to show that aoe3 toned down on the micromanagement.

No getting treasures isn't as micro intensive as getting boars. And at the same time trying to get a deer into your base or idling your opponent. And getting idled at the same time maybe because his scout is in your base. If you play Age of Empires 2 you will know that Age 1 in Age of Empires 2 is more micro intensive and will last longer than in Age of Empires 3. Not to forget that you constantly have to correct pathing in Age 2.

What? Luring a boar is not micro intensive. Neither game is micro intensive, but both have similar amounts of actions going on, aoe3 slightly more depending on the map and matchup.

Really? By my estimate, there are about three or four times as many necessary actions in AoE2 dark age compared to AoE3 discovery. In AoE3 you can literally rub one out in discovery age and still have a good game.

I've played a fair bit of AOE2 and honestly dark age is not more difficult than aoe3 discovery. It takes abit more time to get it down since you should be scouting with 2-3 groups of sheep as well as your scout at the start, but after that it's not micro intense at all. You clearly aren't doing enough of the right things in AOE3 discovery if you think you can rub one out... although thinking back to our games this does make alot of sense.

Neither age1 is micro intensive or difficult. My point was about the amount of actions.

What games are you thinking of? The 3 where you got lucky?

[Dolan]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

But that's also another shortcoming that AOE2 had: you couldn't train units in batches. And maybe they didn't include that in the game because the engine was too primitive and couldn't handle spawning multiple units at once, without crapping itself.

[RefluxSemantic]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

Macro isn't about the clicks. Macro is more about how many vills you put on food, wood, gold and stone and when. You can send your vills from left to right because you don't have a good macro and you will end up using more clicks. Managing eco isn't equal to macro at all.

In sc2 for example they call this part macro too, that's why I added this clarification.

[samwise12]

haha that's actually very sad that i lost 7 games vs you... must have been when i came home drunk (no other reasonable explanation), but also hilarious because you love the drop the "cherry picked" bomb on others

[RefluxSemantic]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

But that's also another shortcoming that AOE2 had: you couldn't train units in batches. And maybe they didn't include that in the game because the engine was too primitive and couldn't handle spawning multiple units at once, without crapping itself.

Shortcoming is pretty subjective. Not being able to train units in batches leads to some interesting gameplay dynamics too. In starcraft 2 I think they deliberately chose not to do this for example, despite clearly having the capacity to do so.

[Goodspeed]

aoe2 mostly has more economical micromanagement (which we often call macro). You require more clicks to actually have a functioning economy and to spend all your resources, and this is not just because of the engine, but also because you just have to produce units more quickly and more often and because there are a lot of small micro tasks you have to do with vills. That's the point he could have made. Making the point about age 1 was stupid.

But that's also another shortcoming that AOE2 had: you couldn't train units in batches. And maybe they didn't include that in the game because the engine was too primitive and couldn't handle spawning multiple units at once, without crapping itself.

Not so much a shortcoming as a design decision. Parfait actually makes a valid point about it. It makes sense from a design perspective to want unit production to be limited by the amount of production facilities you have.

[Goodspeed]

haha that's actually very sad that i lost 7 games vs you... must have been when i came home drunk (no other reasonable explanation), but also hilarious because you love the drop the "cherry picked" bomb on others

I literally searched all of our games. How is that cherry picking

[Dolan]

@Goodspeed
Well, yes, but then, if you think in terms of AOE3, having only one rax also limits how many units you put out. So if your plan is to rush and overwhelm with a certain number of units, then one rax limits your production.

The same argument could be made for AOE3, that it was a design choice to allow only batches of 5 to be trained, to not allow the game to go too fast by training 10 units from one building.

Which makes you wonder why didn't AOE2 allow batches of 5. Having one single building would have still limited production, but to a higher count of units per batch. Especially since they had bigger maps in AOE2, so those units would have had to walk a lot more before attacking.