GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Great Britain samwise12
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by samwise12 »

yes
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Post by Kynesie »

ggs samwise
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[[ssMgc] Samwise12(Sioux) vs[2sNAN] kynesie(Portuguese) - UIx New England - Supremacy].age3Yrec
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New England
New England
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 24 minutes
[[ssMgc] Samwise12(Germans) vs[2sNAN] kynesie(Chinese) - UIx ESOC Bonnie Springs - Supremacy].age3Yrec
(980.35 KiB) Downloaded 162 times
ESOC Bonnie Springs
ESOC Bonnie Springs
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 15 minutes
[[ssMgc] Samwise12(Chinese) vs[2sNAN] kynesie(Chinese) - UIx ESOC Lumaco - Supremacy].age3Yrec
(967.37 KiB) Downloaded 110 times
ESOC Lumaco
ESOC Lumaco
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 15 minutes
[[ssMgc] Samwise12(Japanese) vs[2sNAN] kynesie(Chinese) - UIx ESOC Tuparro - Supremacy].age3Yrec
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ESOC Tuparro
ESOC Tuparro
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 12 minutes
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Astaroth »

GGs wp.

I feel like Jap has a tough MU vs China. Usually Jap wants to go greedy or age 3 vs China, but that does pretty poorly vs an aggro FF as Kynesie did here. If Japan FFs as well, it's just too slow. Usually this doesn't matter because most Chinese players don't play the aggro style (skirm wonder and fb) and instead just go full greed with market, tower etc.

I suppose Jap would need to defend this type of aggro FF with full defensive age 2 play (vill pull, maybe CM), but it seems tricky to hold.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Post by Kaiserklein »

spoiler
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by iNcog »

? renaming feature no longer work? ?
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by draztik »

very nice games btw ;)
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Post by Mitoe »

Spoiler
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[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[PT] vs Mitoe[JP] - ESOC Wabakimi.age3yrec
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ESOC Wabakimi
ESOC Wabakimi
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 18 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[SP] vs Mitoe[SI] - ESOC Colorado.age3yrec
(900.3 KiB) Downloaded 115 times
ESOC Colorado
ESOC Colorado
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 13 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[BR] vs Mitoe[GE] - ESOC Bonnie Springs.age3yrec
(1.05 MiB) Downloaded 141 times
ESOC Bonnie Springs
ESOC Bonnie Springs
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 27 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[BR] vs Mitoe[PT] - ESOC Dhaka.age3yrec
(977.34 KiB) Downloaded 139 times
ESOC Dhaka
ESOC Dhaka
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 15 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[DU] vs Mitoe[RU] - ESOC Bonnie Springs.age3yrec
(939.17 KiB) Downloaded 113 times
ESOC Bonnie Springs
ESOC Bonnie Springs
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 15 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[JP] vs Mitoe[RU] - Deccan.age3yrec
(974.93 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
Deccan
Deccan
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
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Length: 15 minutes
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Post by knusch »

Spoiler
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[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[JP] vs KnuschelbÀr[JP] - ESOC Iowa.age3yrec
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ESOC Iowa
ESOC Iowa
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 14 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[SP] vs KnuschelbÀr[FR] - ESOC Lumaco.age3yrec
(1.14 MiB) Downloaded 136 times
ESOC Lumaco
ESOC Lumaco
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 47 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[RU] vs KnuschelbÀr[CH] - Deccan.age3yrec
(923.74 KiB) Downloaded 133 times
Deccan
Deccan
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 14 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[GE] vs KnuschelbÀr[RU] - ESOC Malaysia.age3yrec
(982.23 KiB) Downloaded 152 times
ESOC Malaysia
ESOC Malaysia
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 22 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] kynesie[AZ] vs KnuschelbÀr[OT] - ESOC Manchuria.age3yrec
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ESOC Manchuria
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
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France Kaiserklein
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Kaiserklein »

spoiler
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[EP8-2 SP] Kaiserklein[SI] vs Mitoe[PT] - ESOC Dhaka.age3yrec
(985.91 KiB) Downloaded 156 times
ESOC Dhaka
ESOC Dhaka
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 17 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] Kaiserklein[BR] vs Mitoe[SI] - ESOC Bonnie Springs.age3yrec
(987.82 KiB) Downloaded 114 times
ESOC Bonnie Springs
ESOC Bonnie Springs
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 19 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] Kaiserklein[SP] vs Mitoe[RU] - ESOC Colorado.age3yrec
(935.3 KiB) Downloaded 134 times
ESOC Colorado
ESOC Colorado
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 16 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] Kaiserklein[BR] vs Mitoe[PT] - ESOC Great Basin.age3yrec
(997.27 KiB) Downloaded 199 times
ESOC Great Basin
ESOC Great Basin
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 18 minutes
[EP8-2 SP] Mitoe[FR] vs Kaiserklein[DU] - ESOC Nepal.age3yrec
(930.57 KiB) Downloaded 160 times
ESOC Nepal
ESOC Nepal
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 8.2
Length: 18 minutes
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Riotcoke »

Wow Kaiser beating two great players in one day, can nothing stop this man?
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Astaroth »

GGs.

One thing I find quite curious, although it may just be me: Mitoe is a great player, and has shown great displays of skill, winning many games. But when it comes to some (losing) games of his, especially vs Kaiser, it seems his strategy choice and execution seem surprising compared to his usual skill.

Now it is obvious that you look better when winning than losing, but I feel many players like Turk or Knusch (and I believe Mitoe is a better player than them overall atm) seem of "similar strength" in most of their games, even if they are losing, even vs someone like Kaiser (the loss just being down to one or two slight misplays or the opponent just having somewhat better control/decision making). In contrast, I feel in some of these games, Mitoe looked really shaky - which is surprising, because he can be really dominant as well.

Not trying to hate or flame, I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed this difference?

It also isn't just the execution, even the strategies, e.g. the imo surprising 5 musk (?) in base 2 BH semi FF as Russia vs Spain or the "spice trade first in age2" as ports vs brits. This isn't just my lowly opinion, either, with e.g. Hazza (I think) commenting in chat: "is Mitoe high or something?".

Thoughts? Just curious.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by giveuanxiety »

The spice trade would of actually been really good if they didnt both forward base right next to each other, but as Mitoe said he noticed the fb too late. Even with that the game was real close and Mitoe definitely had chances to win the game. Either staying age 2 or doing the fast age up to age 3 prob would of been much better for him. As observers and viewers its obviously 100 times easier to see the mistakes then the players since we have information that they dont have.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by comradecommissar »

Astaroth wrote:GGs.

One thing I find quite curious, although it may just be me: Mitoe is a great player, and has shown great displays of skill, winning many games. But when it comes to some (losing) games of his, especially vs Kaiser, it seems his strategy choice and execution seem surprising compared to his usual skill.

Now it is obvious that you look better when winning than losing, but I feel many players like Turk or Knusch (and I believe Mitoe is a better player than them overall atm) seem of "similar strength" in most of their games, even if they are losing, even vs someone like Kaiser (the loss just being down to one or two slight misplays or the opponent just having somewhat better control/decision making). In contrast, I feel in some of these games, Mitoe looked really shaky - which is surprising, because he can be really dominant as well.

Not trying to hate or flame, I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed this difference?

It also isn't just the execution, even the strategies, e.g. the imo surprising 5 musk (?) in base 2 BH semi FF as Russia vs Spain or the "spice trade first in age2" as ports vs brits. This isn't just my lowly opinion, either, with e.g. Hazza (I think) commenting in chat: "is Mitoe high or something?".

Thoughts? Just curious.


I don't know. As a 2nd lieutenant, Im just wary of picking out flaws in players who are about 20 PR ahead of me.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Kaiserklein »

Mitoe underperformed vs me in most recent tournaments, that's about it really
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Astaroth »

@comradecommissar Well, seeing that Kaiser talked about Mitoe throwing in games and Hazza in chat questioned his strategy choice in some games strongly, it doesn't appear to be just a lack of understanding. Regardless, I'm just asking for opinions. If you don't have one, nobody forces you to respond. And btw, if you believe you need to be pr 40+ to discuss anything, you can as well close the forums and all twitch chats.

@Kaiserklein yeah, just curious why. Even some strat choices seemed a bit weird - even to other top players like Hazza in chat -, which is surprising to me.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Kaiserklein »

Idk, he's just quite inconsistent in tourney. Able of the best or the worst performance depending on what pair of socks he's wearing
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Astaroth »

Yeah, guess impossible to know why. But at least good to know that I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Btw I'm a big Mitoe fan, not trying to put him down. I love his somewhat unsual, often greedy style and it's great when it works. Just a bit sad when a final turns out a bit one-sided.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

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Post by Mitoe »

Astaroth wrote:GGs.

One thing I find quite curious, although it may just be me: Mitoe is a great player, and has shown great displays of skill, winning many games. But when it comes to some (losing) games of his, especially vs Kaiser, it seems his strategy choice and execution seem surprising compared to his usual skill.

Now it is obvious that you look better when winning than losing, but I feel many players like Turk or Knusch (and I believe Mitoe is a better player than them overall atm) seem of "similar strength" in most of their games, even if they are losing, even vs someone like Kaiser (the loss just being down to one or two slight misplays or the opponent just having somewhat better control/decision making). In contrast, I feel in some of these games, Mitoe looked really shaky - which is surprising, because he can be really dominant as well.

Not trying to hate or flame, I'm just curious if anyone else has noticed this difference?

It also isn't just the execution, even the strategies, e.g. the imo surprising 5 musk (?) in base 2 BH semi FF as Russia vs Spain or the "spice trade first in age2" as ports vs brits. This isn't just my lowly opinion, either, with e.g. Hazza (I think) commenting in chat: "is Mitoe high or something?".

Thoughts? Just curious.
Honestly people love to criticize in the twitch chat for no reason, even other top players. I don't think my strategies were that bad. The build orders may not have been standard most of the time but honestly sticking to meta build orders can be as much a weakness as it can be a strength. I normally don't follow a strict build order in game. If anyone thinks that my gameplay was "shaky" or weird, then here's the thought process throughout each game:

Game 1 - Port vs Sioux (Dhaka)

Pretty unfortunate matchup for Kaiser. Easy to play to Port's strengths here and difficult to play to Sioux's strengths. I opt to go for water play; I've practiced the Kynesie build order plenty of times and I think I'm quite decent at it when I want to be. However, it didn't feel like the best possible thing to do, as it would give up the TP line and possibly even pond control. So I decided to train some units; there's really no reason why you can't train units with this build order, even if you've never seen Kynesie himself do it. I know Kaiser won't try to push my base in age 2, he's going to try to age. I hit a timing with my 8 bow shipment and both batches of minutemen from the TCs to reduce the risk (just in case he is staying Colonial a bit longer than I think). I manage to get the warhut down and deny stagecoach. It's a bit slower than I expected, however, probably because I missed the first TP mass on top of shipping both Economic Theory and Schooners in Discovery.

I notice I'm a bit late to Fortress, so I quickly throw down a wall. Luckily, it turns out it was needed. To my bafflement, his Elite Axe Riders melt to my Colonial units, and I manage to hold pretty convincingly with the 2 organ guns. From here on there's pretty much nothing he can do. He has no map control, no army, no way to contest water or match my boom. All I have to do is control the pond and wait until my economy carries me to victory.


Game 2 - Sioux vs British (Bonnie Springs)

I'm not the most comfortable Sioux player in the world, but I can play them if I need to. This map gives me some opportunities, I'm able to collect most of the treasures and I believe I aged 1 villager early. Normally, I would just raid and age in this matchup, but on Bonnie trying to raid in the early game is mostly pointless except to get scouting information. I can't just let him free boom, so I decide that since his villagers are going to be safe in his base he probably won't feel uncomfortable about pushing out of his base.

I don't normally go stagecoach with Sioux either, but it lets me control where he will apply pressure with his army, and since he's not really able to scout Sioux at all it means I can potentially punish his army in Colonial. I crush his early army, and then see if I can get anything done in his base. I can't, he has too many units. The logical thing to do here is to age, but aging could mean losing my Trading Post after all. I decide to continue training units in age 2 while pressuring his hunts. There's no way he can scout what I am doing, and if he doesn't push out of his base I can just starve him off of the hunts in the middle. As a result, I'm able to crush his 2nd army as well.

Here's where my inexperience with Sioux shows. I have a few options here: I can try to stand on his hunts and end the game in Colonial--I opted not to do this because the way Bonnie is laid out makes it difficult to win this way; I can try to stay Colonial and just sit on the hunts in the middle until he's forced to fight me or mill, but if he's somehow able to go Fortress I could be in trouble; or I can try to age. I decide to age as it seems to be the safest option. Unfortunately, I don't macro very well and end up not having a shipment in Fortress while also being out of hunts. As a result I'm unable to really punish his push, but I do manage to kill a lot of vills with a few Bow Riders in the mean time. Things are still looking good for me.

Now, the real mistake I made here was not moving my villagers to take control of the hunts in the middle. I was afraid, because I hadn't really been able to train many units, and didn't have many shipments available, so my army wasn't the best. So instead I walk my villagers very far to a smaller hunt in the corner of the map, and eventually end up stacking a lot of wood because of it. All of this idle time causes my mass to suffer, and I'm unable to stop him from taking control of the hunts in the middle. From here there's nothing I can do.

In hindsight I should have either slow aged with the Bison and trained additional Colonial units in transition to make sure I don't die to a push (although the push would be weak, considering how I've killed his army twice and killed 4 or 5 vills at this point), or not been afraid and just sat on the hunts in the middle with my army. Build Teepees and wait for him to come to me--what else can he do? Eventually he has to fight for those hunts, and then I have a great position with Teepees, better units, and the firepit. Unfortunately just my lack of experience with Sioux causing me to make the wrong decision here I think, but otherwise I think I played well and had a clear advantage.


Game 3 - Russia vs Spain (Colorado)

Truthfully, I should have just rerolled my civ here. This matchup is not only awful, but I also don't really play Russia. I considered it, but really the reasons I decided to stick with Russia in the end were poor.

Getting into the game, I open with a market pretty greedily because I have 2 coin treasures in my base, and my gold mine is very close to my crates and TC so my vills don't have to walk much to get onto the hunt after gathering the gold I need. Unfortunately it's not enough, and that 50w I had to chop meant I had to age late. Rather than lose out on villager seconds and go for what will probably be a fruitless 5 cossack 5 musk opening (seriously, it doesn't really hurt Spain at all), I decide to go for a 17v age up. Unfortunately for me, he also collected a Nootka treasure in Discovery, and as a result I decide to forego the forward base. In hindsight, I had already nearly killed his wardog and had a wolf myself, so I probably could have just fought his nootka while building my blockhouse pretty easily and been fine.

I decide that I'll just go for a semi, and possibly siege down an ATP with some muskets, but the macro turns out to be different than I expected and I'm only able to train 5 muskets without slowing my age up too much. Honestly this doesn't matter though.

This matchup is very difficult to win with a "standard" unit composition, so I decide that the way I'm going to win is through artillery. Pure anti-cav should be able to negate the lancer/rod for the most part, as long as I can dominate the artillery battles to keep his skirmishers in check. Unfortunately, I'm an idiot and don't train culverins right away even though he MUST be training culverins himself. As a result I lose all of my cannons practically for free and resign without really doing anything.

This game was definitely the worst one, but honestly I don't think the game plan was that bad overall, just poorly executed.


Game 4 - Portuguese vs British (Great Basin)

Although I'm not a comfortable Port player, I was actually alright with this matchup when I saw it. I think it should be quite good for Port on the current patch. I get a very solid eco, and I have an easy time taking map control with my TC, minutemen, and superior military shipments (8 bow > 6 longbow). Port can match British mass relatively easily in the early game, or even get a larger mass, and then have a musket upgrade of their own to keep them relevant. By the time Brit is sending musk hp, you can be aging with a comparable mass and simply mix in cassadors and it's pretty much GG. What's not to like?

So why did I go Spice Trade? Well I've actually practiced this matchup recently, and as long as the map has decent hunts Spice Trade is actually better than the alternatives. It's also a build order I'm already comfortable with from the old AS Fanpatch days, when Port was very similar to what they are on EP (though slightly better still). Unfortunately I didn't realize he had a forward base as well until too late, or I would have sent something else. The only time Spice Trade is bad is when they also forward base, or if you're able to ATP. Regardless, I'm still able to clean up his early army despite the slow push with the delayed military shipments, but I'm unable to siege the buildings because of longbow.

Eventually I make the decision to age despite having failed to kill his military building because he's going to start outscaling me in Colonial with his musk hp. I think I would've been ok if I hadn't chased his raid with my entire army, and probably should have built a small wall around my TC in the middle while I was aging (although it would have been a giveaway). If those 6 cassadors arrive at my forward TC instead of my in base TC, I think it's almost impossible for him to take map control.

It may still have been winnable even, if I hadn't let him just kill all of my villagers and my TC on the gold mine. I knew there was a very real possibility of him doing something to that, but just decided not to do anything when I definitely should have built a tower or a wall to defend those villagers.


Game 5 - France vs Dutch (Nepal)

This is a matchup I'm pretty comfortable with, and I think it should be France favoured overall. I had a phenomenal start. I was able to age with 13v with gang saw already researched. As a result I ended up doing something I would normally never do in this matchup: I tried to get stagecoach. The reason I don't like getting stagecoach normally vs Dutch is because they usually have a pretty easy time punishing it in Colonial if they adapt correctly, and even if they don't the stagecoach often slows France down enough that Dutch can punish it in Fortress instead, and France ends up having a much harder time pushing their biggest advantage in this matchup: the 2 falconets.

Anyway, despite everything I end up starting musketeers. I see him scouting my barracks and my villagers on food/gold to signal the musket start. I'm scouting him as well: I see the standard 700w opening into a barracks. I'm expecting some kind of push with skirms and pikes, he likely suspects I don't have a stable since I dumped 600w into 2 additional TPs and stagecoach, so I ship 3 huss. Unfortunately I mess up and end up losing one of the huss practically for free to his pikes, and fail to get anything meaningful done with the remaining 2 hussars. At this point my native scout is dead, and I take a risk, expecting him to train some more skirmishers and 8 pikes to try to punish my stagecoach: I ship 8 bow. I know this was a mistake, but if he had stayed Colonial or had I been able to kill his first few units with my hussars, I would've been able to crush him with the 8 bow. The safer thing to do would've been to age and get falcs earlier instead. If he kills some TPs, whatever. I can just kill any of the TPs he builds in Fortress and then push his base.

Regardless, I push his base and try to make something happen. He has no units aside from a handful of skirmishers he was able to train in transition. I consider chasing them, but ultimately decide it's not worth it. I had a suspicion that he didn't garrison all of his villagers in his TC and there are some exposed, but honestly I only stumble into them by accident. I manage to kill a lot of villagers and do a lot more damage that I should have been allowed to do, but really it shouldn't matter. I'm so far away from aging, and he's going to be able to kill all of my TPs and take them for himself. The only reason this would still be winnable would be with the 2 falcs, which I then proceed to lose for free in glorious fashion. I didn't intend to have my infantry or cannons there while I was killing his units with my dragoons. Simply an unforgivable mistake.




Anyway, now that I've typed all that out I'm not really sure what I was trying to say. I guess what I'm saying is that despite how much everyone shit all over my build orders in chat, I was able to get big advantages in most of the games as a result of them, but just wasted my lead with 1 poor decision in each. It's not like I was playing without a plan or any idea what my build orders were going to achieve. I knew what I was doing, and most of the time just failed to execute the follow up well enough to win a game.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by deleted_user »

That's some advanced theory crafting, man.
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Re: GUA June Sub Tour Results

Post by Astaroth »

Very interesting, thank you, @Mitoe

I guess when you try less meta BOs it can turn out great but sometimes (even regardless of the BO) end up poorly, making everyone questioning the whole strat even if it was fine by itself.

Big fan of the preparation, theory crafting and off - meta builds, though :)

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