Should we remove the score from the game ?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Score gives a lot of information by telling if you're ahead or behind.
I think removing it would have a lot of pros.
1) It would make scouting more important. Atm, I would argue that scouting is way too easy, and that's part of the reason why the meta is a bit stale. Furthermore, it's a skill to know if you're ahead or behind based on what happened in the game.
2) It would allow for more comebacks, because a player who's slightly behind would keep fighting instead of giving up

[Imperial Noob]

That's actually an excellent idea. I agree with all three points. What about TP icons and Ages though?

[[Armag] diarouga]

It came to my mind after watching heromarine's stream on Starcraft II. I'm impressed by how he can always tell if he's slightly ahead/slightly behind, totally winning or totally losing in his games, it's really a skill and rewards experience and game knowledge.
I also believe that the games would be decided less often by one big fight. Atm, when you take a bad fight, you see you're 30 points behind and you give up while you could go back and try to come back.

[Mitoe]

Seeing what age your opponent is in is necessary IMO. @Imperial Noob

I'd be ok with TPs being removed, though that one is more debatable.

Score is not really beneficial for competitive gameplay though.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Seeing what age your opponent is in is necessary IMO. @Imperial Noob

I wouldn't say that it's "necessary", because you could try to click on his buildings to see what's his age, but that would be annoying for sure. You would have to spend extra APM to do that, and sometimes you'd just have to guess.

Removing the score on the other hand, doesn't require better APM and mechanics, it just rewards the player with a better game knowledge, which is a positive thing.

[Sargsyan]

great idea, also removing tp icon seems reasonable to me.

[Scroogie]

voted no -> read debaterougas post -> changed vote to yes

[Imperial Noob]

Seeing what age your opponent is in is necessary IMO. @Imperial Noob

I'd be ok with TPs being removed, though that one is more debatable.

Score is not really beneficial for competitive gameplay though.

Yeah, that's why I asked about it. I remember the discussion about why seeing ages is a good thing.
And I was always against seeing native TPs. Right now they give away a rush without the need for scouting. It's little different from seeing a symbol that the opponent has a stable or artillery foundry.

I think hiding nat TPs and the score are moves in a right direction concerning scouting, following the Jap deck bug getting fixed.

But I've also been wondering about the technical side of this. Will it be possible to hide the score and possibly TPs without hiding the Age?

[[Armag] diarouga]

great idea, also removing tp icon seems reasonable to me.

I think removing the TP icon is more controversial imo (although I'm probably for it) because :
1. It is a buff to stagecoach (and it really doesn't need that haha)
2. You may want to include a TP in your BO, and you'll realise that you can't take a TP at the moment.
3. It is a big buff to all in native rushes (and imo it's not a healthy thing for the game, especially if we buff the natives).

[Sargsyan]

great idea, also removing tp icon seems reasonable to me.

I think removing the TP icon is more controversial imo (although I'm probably for it) because :
1. It is a buff to stagecoach (and it really doesn't need that haha)
2. You may want to include a TP in your BO, and you'll realise that you can't take a TP at the moment.
3. It is a big buff to all in native rushes (and imo it's not a healthy thing for the game, especially if we buff the natives).

1. agreed
2. if you're including a tp in your bo you usually build it in age 1, so that shouldn't be that big of a deal, although atp with vills stealing tps might be a problem. also having a map pool with at least 4 tps in every map is retarded
3. natives shouldn't be buffed of course, if this is change going to be implemented and imo native xp trickle should be removed either if this change is going to happen or not

[Squamiger]

at a certain level of play, i feel like score is pretty much irrelevant. high level players know who is winning and who is losing based on scouting and encounters, and they mostly even know what units their opponent is making. I'd argue that if score were removed, the outcomes of most high level games would be pretty much the exact same; ie having the score or not doesn't really matter.

but at the lower levels, score is a good way for new/learning players to be able to judge how effective their builds are. i think we should keep score just because its an important learning tool for newer players

[Hazza54321]

would also increase the amount of turking going on.

[[Armag] diarouga]

great idea, also removing tp icon seems reasonable to me.

I think removing the TP icon is more controversial imo (although I'm probably for it) because :
1. It is a buff to stagecoach (and it really doesn't need that haha)
2. You may want to include a TP in your BO, and you'll realise that you can't take a TP at the moment.
3. It is a big buff to all in native rushes (and imo it's not a healthy thing for the game, especially if we buff the natives).

1. agreed
2. if you're including a tp in your bo you usually build it in age 1, so that shouldn't be that big of a deal, although atp with vills stealing tps might be a problem. also having a map pool with at least 4 tps in every map is retarded
3. natives shouldn't be buffed of course, if this is change going to be implemented and imo native xp trickle should be removed either if this change is going to happen or not

2. India used to add a TP from 600w, and China from 700w a few years ago so idk. In these situations you can adapt since it's China/India but ATP with vills stealing TPs is an issue ye.
3. Native xp is probably going to be removed I think (looking at the poll results). In my opinion, buffed natives could be a nice addition to your army in middle/late game, especially with their techs, but I don't think that super agressive native rushes should be a viable thing.

[Timurid]

to avoid turking only show score if difference reaches 300 or something? overall nice idea.

[Imperial Noob]

is turking really such a big problem atm?

[[Armag] diarouga]

to avoid turking only show score if difference reaches 300 or something? overall nice idea.

People aren't dumb lol. They don't need to see the score to know if there's a 300 score difference.
I don't think it would increase the turking that much honestly. People who turk know that the game is over but refuse to resign, they would still do that without the score. However, if you a click your army on your opponent's hunt and smash his army and his vills, he will just know it's over.

There is no score in sc2 and people don't turk.

[[Armag] diarouga]

is turking really such a big problem atm?

It's a problem with 2-3 players, but as I said in my previous post, these players are the issue (they know that the game is over), and they wouldn't turk more without the score.

[deleted_user]

at a certain level of play, i feel like score is pretty much irrelevant. high level players know who is winning and who is losing based on scouting and encounters, and they mostly even know what units their opponent is making. I'd argue that if score were removed, the outcomes of most high level games would be pretty much the exact same; ie having the score or not doesn't really matter.

but at the lower levels, score is a good way for new/learning players to be able to judge how effective their builds are. i think we should keep score just because its an important learning tool for newer players

This isn't really true. "Score-scouting" is a technique that only PR 35+ players utilize to determine if their opponent is aging, sending mercs, 3 cav first, etc. It's another method to scout, which I am in favor of, because scouting is difficult in aoe3 especially with age 1 imbalance (heroes/nat treasures/etc).

[Kaiserklein]

Yeah scouting is often near impossible when your opponent has units, which is sad. Unless you have stealth units, which is another broken mechanic that shouldn't exist anyway.

[Imperial Noob]

What about all the scouting options various civs have?

Spain has a +10 LOS to all card
Iro has scout infantry card
Russia has cavalry scouts card
Ports have the explorer card
Japan has the Buddha wonder
All euro civs have hot air balloon cards
Euro civs also have invisible spies
Aztecs have big button Jaguar Knights
India and China can send consulate spies
Japan has shinobi from the consulate
France has an invisible scout (it wouldn't be used to bully anymore, because it would not be worth to risk it too much)

These things are not used because they give next to nothing. If they were needed, they would probably be sent, not unlike the cherry orchards.

[Kaiserklein]

What about all the scouting options various civs have?

Spain has a +10 LOS to all card
Iro has scout infantry card
Russia has cavalry scouts card
Ports have the explorer card
Japan has the Buddha wonder
All euro civs have hot air balloon cards
Euro civs also have invisible spies
Aztecs have big button Jaguar Knights
India and China can send consulate spies
Japan has shinobi from the consulate
France has an invisible scout (it wouldn't be used to bully anymore, because it would not be worth to risk it too much)

These things are not used because they give next to nothing. If they were needed, they would be probably sent, not unlike the cherry orchards.

This is a bunch of nonsense and I cba to explain for each example why. I'll just say that the stealth mode native scout is sometimes literally game winning, because that's how broken stealth is. Can make you win a falc war, or get a massive raid, or know your opponent's unit composition. Saying it gives almost nothing is absolutely delusional

[howlingwolfpaw]

I think this would make games much more interesting, It may promote a little more turtling though, as you wont have that information to feel safe enough to come out of base.

Knowing the scores, seeing the timing drops and pops is very useful info. Can this be an option for games? like, enable pro settings....

What about viewing someone else's deck? pretty much gives away if they are going to FF which then people counter pick to rush, or using mercs, etc.... That often is pretty revealing how the game might play out just like the score is indicative of how well that plan is going.

[Imperial Noob]

What about all the scouting options various civs have?

Spain has a +10 LOS to all card
Iro has scout infantry card
Russia has cavalry scouts card
Ports have the explorer card
Japan has the Buddha wonder
All euro civs have hot air balloon cards
Euro civs also have invisible spies
Aztecs have big button Jaguar Knights
India and China can send consulate spies
Japan has shinobi from the consulate
France has an invisible scout (it wouldn't be used to bully anymore, because it would not be worth to risk it too much)

These things are not used because they give next to nothing. If they were needed, they would be probably sent, not unlike the cherry orchards.

This is a bunch of nonsense and I cba to explain for each example why. I'll just say that the stealth mode native scout is sometimes literally game winning, because that's how broken stealth is. Can make you win a falc war, or get a massive raid, or know your opponent's unit composition. Saying it gives almost nothing is absolutely delusional

Meh. These things, i.e. scouting options of various civs in general. You conveniently picked the one thing that is the biggest exception, because it is both invisible and free.

[Zeke]

what about able to see ur own score but not opponent's

[iNcog]

lmao no