Forbid Japan and India to make walls on water maps

iNcog · Post by **iNcog** » 07 Aug 2015, 16:47

walls in general just need to be nerfed, that's all

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 07 Aug 2015, 16:49

yurashic wrote:
edeholland wrote:On land maps we would only see iro/otto being played, while I have seen a major variety in civs being played on water maps.
Japan/Brit/Port beat all civs on water just like like Iro and Otto beat all civs on land. If people cant play water and choose wrong civs it does not mean that water is balanced in terms of civs.

Aztecs beat them all actually. Also I think India is just as good as Japan on water warfare. Russia is another pretty damn good water civ. And Spain can deal with ports on water.

yurashic · Post by **yurashic** » 07 Aug 2015, 16:56

garja wrote:
yurashic wrote:Japan/Brit/Port beat all civs on water just like like Iro and Otto beat all civs on land. If people cant play water and choose wrong civs it does not mean that water is balanced in terms of civs.
Aztecs beat them all actually. Also I think India is just as good as Japan on water warfare. Russia is another pretty damn good water civ. And Spain can deal with ports on water.

Aztec are not that good. You cant push into port because he has a tc on the coast, and if he manages to get to industrial you autolose because jinetes kill all your units without even taking losses. Brit and Jap idk, but I remember your game vs Kynesie on Hispaniola...

India is very good, but kinda slow. Russia has no warship range card and their units are nothing special late game except for Oprichnicks.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 07 Aug 2015, 16:57

garja wrote:
yurashic wrote:Japan/Brit/Port beat all civs on water just like like Iro and Otto beat all civs on land. If people cant play water and choose wrong civs it does not mean that water is balanced in terms of civs.
Aztecs beat them all actually. Also I think India is just as good as Japan on water warfare. Russia is another pretty damn good water civ. And Spain can deal with ports on water.

Aztecs beat every water booms but their water boom isnt viable so...
India and japan rape every water booms (maybe not the otto one) but their water boom isnt that great tbh. Russias water boom is goid yeah, but still holdable with most civs.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 07 Aug 2015, 16:59

Aztecs can canoe rush ports np. I did that on indonesia like 1 month ago and the other guy had 4 docks+1tc+a number of towers. And after you canoe rush you just 4dock yourself with fertility dance. Also full upped eagles kill jinetes dragons like flies.
You saw the worst game I decided to post, too bad I didn't rec the games that I won after that.

Russia has great eco and lame late game mechanics, they have one card for mortarts and 2 advanced dock cards I think. The offshore support card is very good but not always makes the difference.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 07 Aug 2015, 17:01

yurashic wrote:
garja wrote:Aztecs beat them all actually. Also I think India is just as good as Japan on water warfare. Russia is another pretty damn good water civ. And Spain can deal with ports on water.
Aztec are not that good. You cant push into port because he has a tc on the coast, and if he manages to get to industrial you autolose because jinetes kill all your units without even taking losses. Brit and Jap idk, but I remember your game vs Kynesie on Hispaniola...

India is very good, but kinda slow. Russia has no warship range card and their units are nothing special late game except for Oprichnicks.

What about arrow knight? Doesnt it kill tcs+docks?
Brit cant take the sea before 7-8 min, it is good but thats not a pure water boom.
About the game between garja and kynesie, well it was hispa+few years old so garjas play wasnt very good due to an old meta.

India is too slow really.

Why would russia need WC range? They have BH to kill both land and water. In late game opri raids+ coss/strel/brs/falcs is great.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 07 Aug 2015, 17:38

Arrow Knights really aren't that great, but they do kill buildings from 30 range, that much is certain...

KINGofOsmane · Post by **KINGofOsmane** » 07 Aug 2015, 17:57

bramboy wrote:
hazza54321 wrote:walls for japan should be banned period
Are you that Russian player who only spams strelets against walls and then proceeds to blame the game?

yea he is dat guy

yurashic · Post by **yurashic** » 07 Aug 2015, 18:30

garja wrote:Aztecs can canoe rush ports np. I did that on indonesia like 1 month ago and the other guy had 4 docks+1tc+a number of towers. And after you canoe rush you just 4dock yourself with fertility dance. Also full upped eagles kill jinetes dragons like flies.
You saw the worst game I decided to post, too bad I didn''t rec the games that I won after that.

Russia has great eco and lame late game mechanics, they have one card for mortarts and 2 advanced dock cards I think. The offshore support card is very good but not always makes the difference.

Eagle knights will not land a single shot on jinetes. 20 range 7.25 speed vs 16 range 6 speed.

Idk what second advanced dock you mean. They have TEAM cold water port which makes warships 15% cheaper but it is not worth it imo. You need to make 7 frigates to make this card worth more than 1000 wood.

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 07 Aug 2015, 18:51

eagle knight will land hits as 1) jinetes have little setup animation that let the 16 range eagles land shots, 2) none can't micro jinetes perfectly in late game with other stuff to do and map limitations, and 3) instead of chasing jinetes you just go for the eco and force the port player to catch you since you have 90 eagles vs 50 goons.
Besides that you can overpop to 260 army or so and kill the eco.

I'm open to test that on indonesia if anyone wants to collaborate. I didn't have the possibility to do that in tourney :S

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 07 Aug 2015, 19:18

I wouldn't be the best test subject, but I certainly would think Aztec do well in such situations, compared to most civilizations. At least in terms of taking the fight on water.

lordcharlie131 · Post by **lordcharlie131** » 07 Aug 2015, 19:46

garja wrote:Aztecs can canoe rush ports np. I did that on indonesia like 1 month ago and the other guy had 4 docks+1tc+a number of towers. And after you canoe rush you just 4dock yourself with fertility dance. Also full upped eagles kill jinetes dragons like flies.
You saw the worst game I decided to post, too bad I didn''t rec the games that I won after that.

Russia has great eco and lame late game mechanics, they have one card for mortarts and 2 advanced dock cards I think. The offshore support card is very good but not always makes the difference.

Do you have a rec or a guide for aztec and russia waterplay?

I always feel, its so easy to overboom on water and its hard to get the perfect balance. Also when to send schooners? As first, second or third shipment?

Garja · Post by **Garja** » 07 Aug 2015, 20:35

3v schooners, 700w 600w 3wp etc.

I used to do 700w 3wp 5v etc. but that was too vulnerable so I started using 600w which is less ambitious but helps early on.

Land play is better tho, atleast in most of cases. Water is too vulnerable no matter what, just like with any civ.

I have some recs but they're old, like I didn't even have a refined BO for water.
Take a look at these ones I guess

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Papist · Post by **Papist** » 07 Aug 2015, 20:42

incog wrote:walls in general just need to be nerfed, that''s all

How? They are easy to take down with a couple pike or musk.

Basically, everyone here wants to nerf water builds so that their land builds perform better by comparison. Why do you want this game to be even more 2-dimensional than it already is? Water forces civs that might normally sit on their asses and boom to move out and attack the other player. It encourages attacks and discourages camping.

Hazza54321 · Post by **Hazza54321** » 07 Aug 2015, 21:29

bramboy wrote:
hazza54321 wrote:walls for japan should be banned period
Are you that Russian player who only spams strelets against walls and then proceeds to blame the game?

are you that sioux lamer that can only make brs

Hazza54321 · Post by **Hazza54321** » 07 Aug 2015, 21:31

plus strelets have op seige so why would i complain

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 07 Aug 2015, 23:18

Because they have not.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 08 Aug 2015, 10:34

Isn't Strelet siege actually quite good compared to other RI?

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 08 Aug 2015, 11:35

Compared to other RI yes, but not compared to other unit groups like HI musketeers and it's still really slow to siege down the walls. Other nations have pikemen but Russia lacks them.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 08 Aug 2015, 11:43

Strelets are actually fairly close to Musketeers in siege.

_venox_ · Post by **_venox_** » 08 Aug 2015, 11:54

7 vs 16.

Good ol Ivan · Post by **Good ol Ivan** » 11 Aug 2015, 05:06

papist wrote:
incog wrote:walls in general just need to be nerfed, thats all
How? They are easy to take down with a couple pike or musk.

Basically, everyone here wants to nerf water builds so that their land builds perform better by comparison. Why do you want this game to be even more 2-dimensional than it already is? Water forces civs that might normally sit on their asses and boom to move out and attack the other player. It encourages attacks and discourages camping.

Because they are too cheap and quick to build, and are exceptionally strong for brits/japs on certain maps

The problem about water is that it isnt just a boost to your eco, its so good it can replace your land eco by itself. Unlimited TCs which make 40w villies are so much more viable to boom than 100 food villies.
Im not against water itself, I just think schooners is too fucking good and is a great disadvantage for civs which dont have it. Sure that doesnt justify Ottos, but water is also pretty unbalanced.

Einfein · Post by **Einfein** » 11 Aug 2015, 05:10

Fighting on water is similar to land in terms of villager harassment. Don't just give them water uncontested, ship/make boats and attack their fishing sites etc. Keep them pressured and make them spend resources trying to hold water. Not sure why them walling is a problem.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 11 Aug 2015, 06:28

Vs a water boom you have to go water guys, I know you only know how to play land but it is a strategy game so don t complain.

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 11 Aug 2015, 09:51

diarouga wrote:Vs a water boom you have to go water guys, I know you only know how to play land but it is a strategy game so don t complain.

I don''t even think this is true for a lot of civilizations. It certainly is true for Sioux though...

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