new map

[chronique]

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Tournement map

Well, there you go. If you want to only play standard maps, I suggest trying out the Standard Maps pool.

Lot of peaple use to play on tournement map pool which is supose to be a standar map pool lol.

just learn the standard maps mate

What do you mean?

[n0el]

It’s supposed to be the map pool for the upcoming tournament. Why would it be a standard map pool when there’s literally already a map pool called Standard maps.

Maybe because the tournement map are suppose to be "standar". Lumaco on tournament map was bad, and yalu river is worth than lumaco. This kind of map are too strong for somes civ. Why not amazonia on tournament map? why not caraibe?

Why not have a tournament with all games on Arkansas? Sounds really interesting

[EAGLEMUT]

It’s supposed to be the map pool for the upcoming tournament. Why would it be a standard map pool when there’s literally already a map pool called Standard maps.

Maybe because the tournement map are suppose to be "standar". Lumaco on tournament map was bad, and yalu river is worth than lumaco. This kind of map are too strong for somes civ. Why not amazonia on tournament map? why not caraibe?

The tournament map pool is not supposed to be standard at all, it could even have RE maps in it (which it did before). It is mainly supposed to be used by players who wish to prepare for an upcoming tournament, whatever maps that tournament uses.

[chronique]

Why not have a tournament with all games on Arkansas? Sounds really interesting

This kind of sophism is a shame... Some map are bad, can we agree with that? To me yalu river is very bad because 100% unfair.

So when i said "extremely unfair map are bad" is same to you than "all map should be the same" i think we can stop talking.

[chronique]

The tournament map pool is not supposed to be standard at all, it could even have RE maps in it (which it did before). It is mainly supposed to be used by players who wish to prepare for an upcoming tournament, whatever maps that tournament uses.

So tournement map are not supose to be standar at all? I am just disagree with this logic.

[Kaiserklein]

It’s supposed to be the map pool for the upcoming tournament. Why would it be a standard map pool when there’s literally already a map pool called Standard maps.

Maybe because the tournement map are suppose to be "standar". Lumaco on tournament map was bad, and yalu river is worth than lumaco. This kind of map are too strong for somes civ. Why not amazonia on tournament map? why not caraibe?

Why not have a tournament with all games on Arkansas? Sounds really interesting

Ah come on. Ofc we don't want tourneys with full super standard map pools. But having really extreme maps in the pool isn't healthy either. It sounds refreshing and cool until you realize players are forced to play 3 civs on the map, cause nothing else is viable.
Remember when ESOC decided to ban all no TP maps from their pool? That was because it was too boring to watch. I personally think banning them was too extreme, and no TP maps should be a part of tournaments. But I understand why they banned them; we'd only see russia and india on these maps back then. It would just be worse on some other maps (e.g wabakimi).

[n0el]

cant wait until its only RE maps for rated games again

[Kaiserklein]

cant wait until its only RE maps for rated games again

If the maps are fair, I honestly wouldn't even mind playing on RE

[Kaiserklein]

For the record: I was just answering noel's post. Didn't even see the OP of this thread

[Kaiserklein]

Tournement map

Well, there you go. If you want to only play standard maps, I suggest trying out the Standard Maps pool.

Then again, one might wonder why they're in the tournament maps.

[dansil92]

I'd love to watch more german mirrors on kamchatka, thats what i love to see over and over again

[Kaiserklein]

And funnily enough, it's way more interesting than 5 coss every game on thar desert, or warhips + wall fest every game on dhaka, or jap 3 boats into free crates every game on wabakimi...

Seriously though. We need to find a good middle ground between "too standard" maps and super gimmicky maps. Something that allows for interesting games, without forcing people into like 2-3 civs.

[dansil92]

Maybe its nice to see a player win a game based on strategy and large scale decision making instead of who can cram out the most skirmishers in an nr15?

Yalu is a great map. Delete your tc and rebuild it across the river if you have such a problem with the layout and can't fathom having to do something besides camp in base for 12 minutes

[Kaiserklein]

Decision making is mostly what wins games at high level. Do you really think it comes down to spamming more skirms? If that's the case, I'm afraid it descredits you more than anything.

Having a super gimmicky map channels you into NOT taking decisions. Typically on dhaka, you wall the choke everygame. Is there any decision regarding that? No, you KNOW you have to wall the choke. You KNOW you must ship warships to control the pond. That's not decisions, it's basically just knowing how to play the map. And do keep in mind I'm taking dhaka as an example, but I could also talk about e.g yalu river or some other extreme map, which has even less viable options than dhaka.

Meanwhile, a map like kamchatka not only allows you to play a variety of civs, but also allows for a variety of playstyles. If you don't believe me, go ask anyone what's their favourite maps to watch / their favourite casted tournaments games / etc. You'll see a map like Kamchatka in fact provided a ton of super entertaining games... I know you think "it's standard and boring, people just semi FF", but it's really not true.

[dansil92]

I'm not discrediting myself, its just how maps like kamchatka are. Yes every civ is viable, but that just means germany and/or france are picked nearly every game and it usually ends in fortress after one big fight. The only memorable game on kamchatka from epl that i can remember was the india fi mirror with the bombards.

The trouble is kamchatka is a good map. Like a really really good map. Too good, in fact. It spoils players with an abundance of everything. Hence stale meta. What is "optimal" under perfect circumstances ends up being normalised and since it is optimal, it can't be overtaken by hardly anything else. I do agree that dhaka is a map that prevents decision making and i really don't like that map tbh.

Yalu leaves many options open. What really helps though is to actually play on the map and seeing what atypical options are opened up

Making maps is so thankless and having every map compared to arkansas or kamchatka is extremely frustrating. If you want a map design made, feel free to ask or spend 30-50 hours coding it yourself

[princeofcarthage]

@dansil92 While I don't necessarily agree with kaiser, and many of your points are valid, Semi-ff/ff meta is due to balance issues more than map. Like with Germany you would semi or ff 80% of the time on any map. Hard and/or all in rushes are practically killed off, so there is little incentive for player to mass in age 2 as any age 3 build simply beats it. The only way map affects it is by having tons of resources in base which puts little incentive for player to push out early on.

[pérez]

ye tourney maps should not be all standard maps (and they are not), would be a bit boring if so. There should be different kind of maps in it.

[n0el]

And funnily enough, it's way more interesting than 5 coss every game on thar desert, or warhips + wall fest every game on dhaka, or jap 3 boats into free crates every game on wabakimi...

Seriously though. We need to find a good middle ground between "too standard" maps and super gimmicky maps. Something that allows for interesting games, without forcing people into like 2-3 civs.

Yalu is hardly a super gimmicky map, and that’s the only controversial map in the pool.

[dansil92]

@dansil92 While I don't necessarily agree with kaiser, and many of your points are valid, Semi-ff/ff meta is due to balance issues more than map. Like with Germany you would semi or ff 80% of the time on any map. Hard and/or all in rushes are practically killed off, so there is little incentive for player to mass in age 2 as any age 3 build simply beats it. The only way map affects it is by having tons of resources in base which puts little incentive for player to push out early on.

I do agree that rushes have been nerfed far too much, especially heavy infantry rushes. I'm of the opinion that much of the trouble was more of a "crossbows dont actually kill musks" and the solution should have been to buff xbows to 1.5-1.75x vs hi. Obvs iro was too strong and otto was too abuseable, but those are both only true on tp maps.

If you were to sit down and play a few games on ep 8.2.1 but play on RE Sonora, you would immediately find aggressive play to be the optimal strategy, since players push out for res at 0:02
I don't think thats good for the game but its important to keep in mind that resource saturated maps do favour boomy play

[Kaiserklein]

I'm not discrediting myself, its just how maps like kamchatka are. Yes every civ is viable, but that just means germany and/or france are picked nearly every game and it usually ends in fortress after one big fight. The only memorable game on kamchatka from epl that i can remember was the india fi mirror with the bombards.

The trouble is kamchatka is a good map. Like a really really good map. Too good, in fact. It spoils players with an abundance of everything. Hence stale meta. What is "optimal" under perfect circumstances ends up being normalised and since it is optimal, it can't be overtaken by hardly anything else. I do agree that dhaka is a map that prevents decision making and i really don't like that map tbh.

Yalu leaves many options open. What really helps though is to actually play on the map and seeing what atypical options are opened up

Making maps is so thankless and having every map compared to arkansas or kamchatka is extremely frustrating. If you want a map design made, feel free to ask or spend 30-50 hours coding it yourself

People go ger / fr on kamchatka cause it's safe picks. Or, in the case of the LAN tourney, because it was the first map and people want to mirror / get fair match ups. By no means people would go exclusively for these civs if it wasn't for that.

Anyway, I mostly agree with you I think. And I don't know yalu well enough to really talk. Was mainly answering to the "kamchatka is boring" part.
I'm not being ungrateful for the maps. I do appreciate all the maps being made. Trust me, I'm sensitive to this as I'm a good mate of Rikikipu, and he sometimes got negative feedback regarding his maps. I just also happen to care about maps being labeled as "standard" or "competitive". I don't mind fun maps for casual games, as long as they're indeed for casual games, or at least aren't the backone of tourney map pools.

[dansil92]

Absolutely yalu is not a standard map, and im very glad its not in the upcoming tourney until the later rounds, and later into each series. Im seriously so excited to see what strategies and civs come out during gameplay though

[kaister]

Adding +5 pop and 2 fishing boats impacts civs differently. In theory iro could have 4 kanya in opponents base at like 3 mins if they skip 3v and fast age. Is this better than the ff meta?

[dansil92]

Adding +5 pop and 2 fishing boats impacts civs differently. In theory iro could have 4 kanya in opponents base at like 3 mins if they skip 3v and fast age. Is this better than the ff meta?

Its funny you mention this, i actually tested this out last week. You have like 0 wood and no eco so you can't follow up much, but it is possible. You won't stop your opponent aging since they have 2 fishers too, but its definitely something thats doable

[chronique]

Yalu is hardly a super gimmicky map, and that’s the only controversial map in the pool.

Thats was the map i am talking about!!! So at the end it's looks like i am not 100% wrong if you are "almost" agree.

[Astaroth]

Maybe its nice to see a player win a game based on strategy and large scale decision making instead of who can cram out the most skirmishers in an nr15?

Yalu is a great map. Delete your tc and rebuild it across the river if you have such a problem with the layout and can't fathom having to do something besides camp in base for 12 minutes

Totally agree with this.

Obviously decision making does play a big role already in top player games. But for the most part, it is more decision making within the already defined meta for a map, which is often similar.
Meaning eg when and where to attack, which unit to prioritize, when to go back, when to age, which upgrades when etc.

And all of that ia fine. But that's not the grand scale decision making that I assume dansil means and that I myself would like to see more:

Civs going for overall strats they usually wouldn't, all new or unusual builds, which we haven't see much before. Examples of this would maybe be French FI, native rushes, Spain revolt etc. Now granted, all new or exciting strats can also be created on standard maps. But new, abit more whacky ones are more likely to force players to think outside the box entirely.