Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Canada Mitoe
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Mitoe »

Cometk wrote:
sebnan12 wrote:does that mean nobody picks first? if yes itss garbage idea
nah, instead it means that you can play any civ as many times as you like, even if you've won with it already. you would still have winner-picks-first or alternating pick methodology
Actually, I meant neither. Should be no counterpicking and no civ rules.

I'm actually more fine with having civ rules than counterpicking rules.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by kaister »

Blind picks would wind up having series decided with luck guessing/mind gaming in a lobby
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
I like the idea of blind (secret) picking though.
It's the most entertaining but it's not competitive, so it can't be used in the competitive seasonal tournaments.
perhaps rules until the finale? in which alternates picking (not by winning) all civs allowed but no mirrors? so at least in the finale it is about the ultimate strategy, while the qualifying rounds prove who is the most diverse player.
Again, from a competitive point of view, I don't think it's fair to change the rules just for the finals.
Furthermore, reaching the finals is already something, and the best strategy for the players would still be to try hard with 1-3 civs in order to reach the finals.

Honestly it would make aoe3 super boring for me as a player. I cannot enjoy playing only one or two civs (although I've tried), and this is what I'd have to do to be competitive.
Just thinking of ways to compromise.

1st bit would be to prevent counter picking based on civ selection, so if one civ has an advantage over the other then games are not won on that. now they could pick their favorite civ per map, but would have to have something to prevent same civ selections.

2nd idea was the compromise even though I like random civs, I get it would not be fun to only watch players best civs. We could have a finale of mirrors or something that would be boring.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Mitoe »

We had no counterpicking rules in the first esoc tournament. Only had to force blind pick a single time.

I'm just sick of tournaments this last year being more about matchups and counterpicks rather than skill.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by howlingwolfpaw »

kaister wrote:Blind picks would wind up having series decided with luck guessing/mind gaming in a lobby
as opposed to advantages set in slight civ imbalances?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by kaister »

If you win game 1, lose 2, counter pick g3, lose 4, counter pick g5 you win series
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Why not just have rules alike to the first game of a series with NWC rules, both players agree, but have a civ limit. Without a civ limit you're always going to have a lack of diversity.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Mitoe »

I don't agree, I think we will have more civ diversity without counterpick rules
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:We had no counterpicking rules in the first esoc tournament. Only had to force blind pick a single time.

I'm just sick of tournaments this last year being more about matchups and counterpicks rather than skill.
Only had to force one blind pick, but that's because the balance was worse, and because people didn't try to be annoying.
I remember some situations where people had to give up because they were tired of the civ dance and they didn't want to go for a random pick. Even with the alternative pick, I remember that some people eventually got bored and agreed to a MU they didn't want to play in game 1 (and this has happened to myself as well).

Anyway, I guess it's fine to scrap the counterpicking rules, but civ restriction is a must imo.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

I just think not having a cap on civs will result in both giving a massive advantage to just playing one or two civs and then dominating because of it, look at Skrimisher for example, he's like brig level with china whilst being signiciantly weaker with other civs. If he learns one other civ to brig that does well vs the counters of china what's to stop him stomping other players who only play civs that are bad vs china?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by kaister »

If I could pick Sioux every time and I agree to a Mu every time, the only civs I need to know are Sioux, Russia if someone wants to Brit, some German counter if someone wants to German, and maybe Otto or Spain for high plains.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:I don't agree, I think we will have more civ diversity without counterpick rules
With no counterpick rules + civ restriction we have more diversity than no rules at all. I don't think I even need to explain why.
Maybe it would be the same for you, but I know many players (especially in the pr30-35 range), who'd just play one civ every game.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Not to mention that it will just be boring, turk will litreally just play japan 24/7 in a tourney game vs Kaiser, you can see this when Kaiser streams, if turk loses he just sticks on Japan.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Riotcoke »

Overall it just benefits worse players overall who sticks to one or two civs.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

Riotcoke wrote:Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
mono-civ tournaments aren't boring though, in fact the New Year's Classic produced some of the most strategically interesting games of the year
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
mono-civ tournaments aren't boring though, in fact the New Year's Classic produced some of the most strategically interesting games of the year
Mono-civ is fine from time to time. The problem arrises when it becomes the norm, people just end getting fed up with it.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by kaister »

@Cometk it also produced a boring as fuck finals since kaisers Germans countered Hazza Spain so hard
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
mono-civ tournaments aren't boring though, in fact the New Year's Classic produced some of the most strategically interesting games of the year
And that's because we (top players) picked fun civs, because it was a fun event, not a competitive one. For instance, with 1000$ on the line, hazza wouldn't have picked Spain, I wouldn't have picked Aztecs, and kaiser wouldn't have picked Germany (considering the map pool).
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Mitoe »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
mono-civ tournaments aren't boring though, in fact the New Year's Classic produced some of the most strategically interesting games of the year
Exactly. Don't know how it could be boring. At least everyone gets to play civs they know instead of being forced into fringe civs or situations where they have little clue what they are doing.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Also just as a sidenote, one of the worst parts of casting is the waiting in between games, this is already sometimes a problem with the NWC rules which for counterpicking should be quicker. In contrast if every mu was agreed with some players their series would become impossible to cast properly with huge waits in between, an example is GS vs Cossack which was like 40 minutes before the first game started iirc.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by kaister »

@Mitoe id say forcing your opponent into a weird situation theyā€™re unfamiliar with should be rewarded. Also makes saving your best civs for A specific map/match up later more viable.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Mitoe wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Well it's the only way you can do what mitoe wants and not have a boring as fuck tourney for viewers.
mono-civ tournaments aren't boring though, in fact the New Year's Classic produced some of the most strategically interesting games of the year
Exactly. Don't know how it could be boring. At least everyone gets to play civs they know instead of being forced into fringe civs or situations where they have little clue what they are doing.
So they're not as good at the game overall?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

Riotcoke wrote:
Mitoe wrote:
Show hidden quotes
Exactly. Don't know how it could be boring. At least everyone gets to play civs they know instead of being forced into fringe civs or situations where they have little clue what they are doing.
So they're not as good at the game overall?
you critically do not understand width vs depth
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