Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Very specifically pr38+
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ye, because before that level people play most MUs the wrong way, so you can still find a counter build in a bad MU most of the time.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

But specifically pr38+ not pr37 or pr39?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I said pr38+ because pr38 is brigadier, there's no big difference with pr37 or pr39.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Cometk »

Mitoe wrote:I think that’s an exaggeration. There’s no way a major is going to beat a top player regardless of the matchup unless the top player simply cannot play the civ at all, and even then I think it’s very unlikely the major would win. Matchup is important between players at the same level, but otherwise it’s usually irrelevant for the better player.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Cometk wrote:
Mitoe wrote:I think that’s an exaggeration. There’s no way a major is going to beat a top player regardless of the matchup unless the top player simply cannot play the civ at all, and even then I think it’s very unlikely the major would win. Matchup is important between players at the same level, but otherwise it’s usually irrelevant for the better player.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Mitoe »

Skirmisher is definitely not a major, no matter your memes.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by chronique »

My opinion about "unplayable mu" can be decided when i will see rapha againt top spain players. If rapha can't consistently won againt pr 35/38 spain player (80% winrate) i would conclude that some mu are not realy playable.

To me, at this point, there are too many mu and not enough top player (kaiser level) to be sure about unplayable mu. Also because peaple need too learn more civ, when you have bad mu, you will prefere pick an other civ more than trying with your main, which generates a bias de facto.

Also, based on my data, opinion about mu from the top players seem not always very accurate (if i am not wrong, a lot of peaple thinking than jap is bad mu for german, but that's not what data suggest and especialy from the top of the top, the best mu for germans kaiserklain is vs jap for exemple).
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

chronique wrote:My opinion about "unplayable mu" can be decided when i will see rapha againt top spain players. If rapha can't consistently won againt pr 35/38 spain player (80% winrate) i would conclude that some mu are not realy playable.

To me, at this point, there are too many mu and not enough top player (kaiser level) to be sure about unplayable mu. Also because peaple need too learn more civ, when you have bad mu, you will prefere pick an other civ more than trying with your main, which generates a bias de facto.

Also, based on my data, opinion about mu from the top players seem not always very accurate (if i am not wrong, a lot of peaple thinking than jap is bad mu for german, but that's not what data suggest and especialy from the top of the top, the best mu for germans kaiserklain is vs jap for exemple).
Rapha hasn't played against any top tier Spain player in rated games so your argument doesn't really work.

My point was that at pr38+, MU decide 50% of the game. This doesn't mean that it's impossible to win a bad MU, because you can still get a lucky age 1 (and I'd say that a bad MU with insane age 1 should lead to an even game) or your opponent can fuck up.
Also if your opponent doesn't know how to play a good MU for him, then it doesn't matter how good a MU is.

PS : I think that jap vs ger is even on the current patch.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

[Armag] diarouga wrote: Rapha hasn't played against any top tier Spain player in rated games so your argument doesn't really work.
Yes that's why i want watch him lol, my arg is not against unplayable mu, i think rapha dutch vs spain can be a good set up to me to form more definitive opinion. I am prety carefull about how affirmative peaple can be.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

Skirmisher is like brig if he is playing China, on top of being a nice dude
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Kaiserklein »

Ofc he's not major.
Then there's brig with full china and brig with real civs. Not to be confused
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Hazza54321 »

its a common misconception as his mechanics are around major level
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by chronique »

I am happy than i am not listed here.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

chronique wrote:I am happy than i am not listed here.
There's quite a few examples, missed mighty Rohbrot too.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Garja wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
But the problem here is playing china in a lot of MUs, at least when you're at a similarly low level of mechanics, is far easier than playing the opposing civilisation.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

There is a point to be made about civ masters. they have figured out the ins and outs of different maps and match ups. it's depth that should be rewarded in a way as well

lol also rohbrot come back please

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Garja wrote: ↑
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
And many people would mirror him all the time, so we could have a BO5 with 3x China mirror. Now imagine other players start playing 100% China, we could have a situation were most of the series are China mirrors lol.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

Idk that China is easier than France? the age 1 macro kills me all the time
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
And many people would mirror him all the time, so we could have a BO5 with 3x China mirror. Now imagine other players start playing 100% China, we could have a situation were most of the series are China mirrors lol.
Exactly, like honestly i don't feel there's too much of a problem at the upper end of the game, for example Kaiser vs Mitoe neither player is going to be able to play a single civ throughout and win every game. This just isn't what's going to happen at the lower-mid end of the spectrum, you'll have the players who can play 3-5 civs at say ltcol level whilst the guy who can play one civ to like col+ level will just demolish.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

iNcog wrote:Idk that China is easier than France? the age 1 macro kills me all the time
The age 1 macro for china is realtively easy, it's also about to get easier in the next EP. The problem for china in the lower levels is that you give china time, which with more mistakes happens, you just die.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:There is a point to be made about civ masters. they have figured out the ins and outs of different maps and match ups. it's depth that should be rewarded in a way as well
And it is rewarded for sure. Check kaiser's winrate with Germany in tournaments, or turk's with Japan.
With the current system, you're rewarded for being very good with a civ as you can get 1-2 wins/series with your best civ, but you have to play more than one civ so it's also rewarding to play many civs.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Hazza54321 »

i dont see the benefit of seeing more mirrors or more of the same civs, boring to play and boring to watch as less civs are utilised. Less civ strengths vs weakness are played into account which are usually the most interesting games to play and watch anyway. Really dont know why it needs changing at all it is good atm, only the winner always being counterpicked isnt ideal but if it works it works

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