Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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France [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:Idk that China is easier than France? the age 1 macro kills me all the time
It's not really easier mechanically overall (micro is slightly easier but macro is harder and you need to defend) but it's more timing oriented, so it's easier to win games with good decisions and poor mechanics.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Hazza54321 »

i would probably play mostly france, kaiser with germans, mitoe with fre or china, skirmisher with china, garja with japs( because for some reason he thinks hes a god with that civ), turk with mostly japs and bwinner with mostly otto, for examples.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
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And many people would mirror him all the time, so we could have a BO5 with 3x China mirror. Now imagine other players start playing 100% China, we could have a situation were most of the series are China mirrors lol.
Exactly, like honestly i don't feel there's too much of a problem at the upper end of the game, for example Kaiser vs Mitoe neither player is going to be able to play a single civ throughout and win every game. This just isn't what's going to happen at the lower-mid end of the spectrum, you'll have the players who can play 3-5 civs at say ltcol level whilst the guy who can play one civ to like col+ level will just demolish.
I don't know, it's also going to be an issue at the top level. For instance, I don't want to face kynesie playing Japan every game or Lukas playing China 90% of the time. Even Tit with 100% India would be a scary opponent, while he's not a top tier player currently because he can only play India.

I guess you're right that it would be a bigger issue in the lower pr, as many people only play one civ at this level.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:i would probably play mostly france, kaiser with germans, mitoe with fre or china, skirmisher with china, garja with japs( because for some reason he thinks hes a god with that civ), turk with mostly japs and bwinner with mostly otto, for examples.
Ye, and that's because the best way to win would be to try hard with one civ. In Stracraft II for example, there is not a single player who plays random (while it gives you an advantage because the opponent needs to scout to know your race).
I would probably switch to 100% China or 100% France if I had to prepare a tournament without civ rules, because you need to play a MU 100 times if you want to master it.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Hazza54321 »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i would probably play mostly france, kaiser with germans, mitoe with fre or china, skirmisher with china, garja with japs( because for some reason he thinks hes a god with that civ), turk with mostly japs and bwinner with mostly otto, for examples.
Ye, and that's because the best way to win would be to try hard with one civ. In Stracraft II for example, there is not a single player who plays random (while it gives you an advantage because the opponent needs to scout to know your race).
I would probably switch to 100% China or 100% France if I had to prepare a tournament without civ rules, because you need to play a MU 100 times if you want to master it.
yeah and only mindless robots play 1 civ, just getting rewarded for not exploring the game, makes no sense
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Ye, it would lead to bot try harding and it would also be super boring for both the viewers and the players.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

Good points from diarouga, among others, thank you

What about a civ draft?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:Good points from diarouga, among others, thank you

What about a civ draft?
What do you mean by that ?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

Hazza54321 wrote:yeah and only mindless robots play 1 civ, just getting rewarded for not exploring the game, makes no sense
I realy don't care about tourney rules, but pls, can we avoid this kind of coment?

It's always the same story, somes which don't understand a minority, can't help but be condescending.

Also, who is the most bot, the guy who try hard one civ in all mu (something not ez at all), or the guy who play 2-3 bot bo with 2-3 civ because its the most efficient way to perform in tourney?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iNcog wrote:Good points from diarouga, among others, thank you

What about a civ draft?
What do you mean by that ?
like before a series both players pick civs from the 14 and stick to a smol civ pool.

honestly it doesnt do much and I know they do it in aoe2 but dont know how or why
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I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Riotcoke wrote:
Garja wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
But the problem here is playing china in a lot of MUs, at least when you're at a similarly low level of mechanics, is far easier than playing the opposing civilisation.
This argument doesn't stand. Difficulty and strenght of a civ is somewhat subjective. And regardless it's not a good reason to force civ picks. If he wants to play an easy civ he's free to do that. Just make sure there is a balance between ease of play and strenght.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Garja wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Skirmisher isn't a major of course, but it does show the problem with allowing players to play one civ, for a while he was excellent with china but relatively poor with other civs, would it be fair for him to get to the 1/4 or semi finals just because he could play one civ?

I also have nothing against him, it's just that Bwinner and Him are the two good examples of players playing one civ.
It would be fair if the rules were that you can play any civ as much as you want. Other players would also play China if it were to be so favorite to win. While China is indeed very strong the main thing with Skirmisher is that he plays always the same civ so he has more situations figured out. There is a number of civs that do fine vs China, and some other civs (e.g. Japan) that do decent on the current patch.
And many people would mirror him all the time, so we could have a BO5 with 3x China mirror. Now imagine other players start playing 100% China, we could have a situation were most of the series are China mirrors lol.
This is just an oversemplification as the game balance is nowhere close to that situation. If that was the case it means China is by far top civ and should be nerfed hard.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Riotcoke wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Show hidden quotes
And many people would mirror him all the time, so we could have a BO5 with 3x China mirror. Now imagine other players start playing 100% China, we could have a situation were most of the series are China mirrors lol.
Exactly, like honestly i don't feel there's too much of a problem at the upper end of the game, for example Kaiser vs Mitoe neither player is going to be able to play a single civ throughout and win every game. This just isn't what's going to happen at the lower-mid end of the spectrum, you'll have the players who can play 3-5 civs at say ltcol level whilst the guy who can play one civ to like col+ level will just demolish.
Idk about high level. I'm fairly confident that if they could Mitoe and Kaiser would play literally 2 civs whole tourney.
Regardless, the situation where one player is gonna demolish with just one civ is exactly how it should be. If others can't beat his civ it's their fault and his merit.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iNcog wrote:There is a point to be made about civ masters. they have figured out the ins and outs of different maps and match ups. it's depth that should be rewarded in a way as well
And it is rewarded for sure. Check kaiser's winrate with Germany in tournaments, or turk's with Japan.
With the current system, you're rewarded for being very good with a civ as you can get 1-2 wins/series with your best civ, but you have to play more than one civ so it's also rewarding to play many civs.
Current system (or any system on EP so far) is just way far off from where it should be. There is little room for that genuine nerd solo civ grinding which is the essence of RTS gaming.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Hazza54321 wrote:i dont see the benefit of seeing more mirrors or more of the same civs, boring to play and boring to watch as less civs are utilised. Less civ strengths vs weakness are played into account which are usually the most interesting games to play and watch anyway. Really dont know why it needs changing at all it is good atm, only the winner always being counterpicked isnt ideal but if it works it works
Mirrors are fun to play/watch. Treaty is not.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

iNcog wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
iNcog wrote:Good points from diarouga, among others, thank you

What about a civ draft?
What do you mean by that ?
like before a series both players pick civs from the 14 and stick to a smol civ pool.

honestly it doesnt do much and I know they do it in aoe2 but dont know how or why
What's the point though ? It reduces diversity for nothing, just let people play the civs they want.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Hazza54321 wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i would probably play mostly france, kaiser with germans, mitoe with fre or china, skirmisher with china, garja with japs( because for some reason he thinks hes a god with that civ), turk with mostly japs and bwinner with mostly otto, for examples.
Ye, and that's because the best way to win would be to try hard with one civ. In Stracraft II for example, there is not a single player who plays random (while it gives you an advantage because the opponent needs to scout to know your race).
I would probably switch to 100% China or 100% France if I had to prepare a tournament without civ rules, because you need to play a MU 100 times if you want to master it.
yeah and only mindless robots play 1 civ, just getting rewarded for not exploring the game, makes no sense
Good players play one civ. Nubs play many civs cause "it's fun".
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote: There is little room for that genuine nerd solo civ grinding which is the essence of RTS gaming.
I guess that's where we disagree. It might be the essence of RTS gaming (and it is in sc2/wc3) but it doesn't work that way in the aoe series.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

There are not RTS gaming essence lol, it's 100% subjectif.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Aside from the fact that AOE series used to work that way (huns mirrors and jap mirrors just to name two examples), the fact that it doesn't work that way currently is because there has been lobbying in the sense of favoring different civs in the same series. And this is the whole point of the discussion. Multiple civ choice is a bit of bullshit. There is no foundamental argument backing it up aside from "mirrors are boring to watch" and "playing many civs is a skill". Quite frankly very weak arguments.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

Riotcoke wrote:Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
Bad arg tbh, if the civ is mono strat its because of bad design, and improving design is supppose to be one of the main reason of esoc.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

chronique wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
Bad arg tbh, if the civ is mono strat its because of bad design, and improving design is supppose to be one of the main reason of esoc.
Tad civ design isn't really compatable with nilla and TWC civ design, if you want to aruge that, we might as well play on nilla.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

Riotcoke wrote:
chronique wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
Bad arg tbh, if the civ is mono strat its because of bad design, and improving design is supppose to be one of the main reason of esoc.
Tad civ design isn't really compatable with nilla and TWC civ design, if you want to aruge that, we might as well play on nilla.
What do you mean? You talking about dutch, if dutch can't do other than skirm ruyter, its becouse of bad design.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Le Hussard sur le toit »

Garja wrote:Aside from the favt that AOE series used to work that way (huns mirrors and jap mirrors just to name two examples), the fact that it doesn't work that way currently is because there has been lobbying in the sense of favoring different civs in the same series. And this is the whole point of the discussion. Multiple civ choice is a bit of bullshit. There is no foundamental argument backing it up aside from "mirrors are boring to watch" and "playing many civs is a skill". Quite frankly very weak arguments.
"Mirrors are boring to watch" is definitely not a weak argument since viewers' interest decides, in fine, the financial support for tournaments.
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