Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Italy Garja
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Riotcoke wrote:Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
Ye, except it was skirm pike (or huss) semi FF, vs FF, vs 3bank ruyt falc FF. It was 3 different strats for the same mirror and Grunt came up with the best build.
Nowadays mirrors are more complex than that anyway, mostly because EP maps allow for different strats and also because civ balance is better overall.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Riotcoke wrote:
chronique wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:Yes, dutch ryut falc was such a great thing to watch over and over sure took a massive amount of skill too.
Bad arg tbh, if the civ is mono strat its because of bad design, and improving design is supppose to be one of the main reason of esoc.
Tad civ design isn't really compatable with nilla and TWC civ design, if you want to aruge that, we might as well play on nilla.
I fail to see the link between your point (TAD design) and the one he's trying to make (viability of just one strat in mirrors).
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
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yeah and only mindless robots play 1 civ, just getting rewarded for not exploring the game, makes no sense
Good players play one civ. Nubs play many civs cause "it's fun".
what the fuck is this argument, get good lol and stop crying because you cant play exclusively japs
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i dont see the benefit of seeing more mirrors or more of the same civs, boring to play and boring to watch as less civs are utilised. Less civ strengths vs weakness are played into account which are usually the most interesting games to play and watch anyway. Really dont know why it needs changing at all it is good atm, only the winner always being counterpicked isnt ideal but if it works it works
Mirrors are fun to play/watch. Treaty is not.
what does treaty have anything to do with this, mirrors being fun to watch/play is an unpopular opinion
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:
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Good players play one civ. Nubs play many civs cause "it's fun".
what the fuck is this argument, get good lol and stop crying because you cant play exclusively japs
wtf is this argument i can play all 14 civs
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:i dont see the benefit of seeing more mirrors or more of the same civs, boring to play and boring to watch as less civs are utilised. Less civ strengths vs weakness are played into account which are usually the most interesting games to play and watch anyway. Really dont know why it needs changing at all it is good atm, only the winner always being counterpicked isnt ideal but if it works it works
Mirrors are fun to play/watch. Treaty is not.
what does treaty have anything to do with this, mirrors being fun to watch/play is an unpopular opinion
So is the opinion about treaty, and you are playing treaty. It's a fuckin comparison. It means that opinions are just...opinions.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Hazza54321 »

Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
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what the fuck is this argument, get good lol and stop crying because you cant play exclusively japs
wtf is this argument i can play all 14 civs
not well
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Garja wrote:
Hazza54321 wrote:
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what does treaty have anything to do with this, mirrors being fun to watch/play is an unpopular opinion
So is the opinion about treaty, and you are playing treaty. It's a fuckin comparison. It means that opinions are just...opinions.
i didnt even state my opinion about treaty and is irrelevant to this discussion, you just used it because your argument is flawed
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:
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So is the opinion about treaty, and you are playing treaty. It's a fuckin comparison. It means that opinions are just...opinions.
i didnt even state my opinion about treaty and is irrelevant to this discussion, you just used it because your argument is flawed
You did state your opinion about mirros (which I like) I did state mine about treaty (which you must like as you're playing a lot). Again it's a comparison. Just because you think mirrors are boring it doesn't mean they are.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

Hazza54321 wrote:
Garja wrote:
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wtf is this argument i can play all 14 civs
not well
Well enough.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

the "mirror meta" concern is only valid if u remove civ rules entirely (ie. no more counter picks - players have to agree on a MU for every game in a series)

honestly why entertain that idea to its logical extreme? the more metered option is to remove civilization restrictions, but maintain counterpicking rules (winner picks first, etc.). doing this system might lead to slightly lower civ diversity but it wouldn't lead to a "mirror meta". the difference is that now you would see greater intra-civ depth of play, while also allowing players to play most often at their very best.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:the "mirror meta" concern is only valid if u remove civ rules entirely (ie. no more counter picks - players have to agree on a MU for every game in a series)

honestly why entertain that idea to its logical extreme? the more metered option is to remove civilization restrictions, but maintain counterpicking rules (winner picks first, etc.). doing this system might lead to slightly lower civ diversity but it wouldn't lead to a "mirror meta". the difference is that now you would see greater intra-civ depth of play, while also allowing players to play most often at their very best.
Removing counterpicking rules and keeping civ restrictions is better than the opposite imo.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

imagine administering all the disputes :sad:
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:imagine administering all the disputes :sad:
Then that's a good idea in theory but not in practice. Counterpicking with no civ restriction feels shit lol.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:imagine administering all the disputes :sad:
Then that's a good idea in theory but not in practice. Counterpicking with no civ restriction feels shit lol.
why would it feel like shit? not enjoying playing vs the same civ after your opponent just beat you with it?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:imagine administering all the disputes :sad:
Then that's a good idea in theory but not in practice. Counterpicking with no civ restriction feels shit lol.
why would it feel like shit? not enjoying playing vs the same civ after your opponent just beat you with it?
Yea, not enjoying playing 100% vs Otto in particular, one game is already too much so don't force me to play a full series against it.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by richard »

Maybe you could make it a mixture: The players could have to decide before the tournament starts if

EITHER they start as a one-civ-player, but then are not allowed to play any other civ (even if they would like to counter-pick the opponent at a certain point with a certain civ -- that s not allowed anymore then)

OR they can play multiple civs, but then are not allowed to play one civ too often (like it is now)
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

richard wrote:Maybe you could make it a mixture: The players could have to decide before the tournament starts if

EITHER they start as a one-civ-player, but then are not allowed to play any other civ (even if they would like to counter-pick the opponent at a certain point with a certain civ -- that s not allowed anymore then)

OR they can play multiple civs, but then are not allowed to play one civ too often (like it is now)
That's exactly to prevent people from playing only one civ that we go for this rule. If you want to prove yourself, learn a 2nd and a 3rd civ.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Garja »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:
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why would it feel like shit? not enjoying playing vs the same civ after your opponent just beat you with it?
Yea, not enjoying playing 100% vs Otto in particular, one game is already too much so don't force me to play a full series against it.
Well this more of a problem of yours than bad rule.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by lemmings121 »

As a viewer/casual player myself, current rules are great. (pre defined map pool, agree on first MU, counterpicks after, one win per civ.) personally I like loser picks first, but alternating picks is also just fine.

Just to add something different to the discussion: as a viewer having the one win per civ rule is great: it means that more civs will be represented in every series. More people will have the chance to see at least one game where their favorite civ is represented (instead of 5x german vs fre or something), so whatever player gets in the finals, I know there will be at least a few games with "my" civ.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
richard wrote:Maybe you could make it a mixture: The players could have to decide before the tournament starts if

EITHER they start as a one-civ-player, but then are not allowed to play any other civ (even if they would like to counter-pick the opponent at a certain point with a certain civ -- that s not allowed anymore then)

OR they can play multiple civs, but then are not allowed to play one civ too often (like it is now)
That's exactly to prevent people from playing only one civ that we go for this rule. If you want to prove yourself, learn a 2nd and a 3rd civ.
But there are several players who identify themselves as one-civ-players though, like poissondu44, skirmisher1380, irishfaithful, etc. for example. Why do you want to prevent them from playing their civ? Sure, they are a minority, but that cant be your reason to try prevent them from doing what they like i guess. Do you think their advantage in a tournament would be too large if they started as a one-civ-player, or what s your reason?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

richard wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
richard wrote:Maybe you could make it a mixture: The players could have to decide before the tournament starts if

EITHER they start as a one-civ-player, but then are not allowed to play any other civ (even if they would like to counter-pick the opponent at a certain point with a certain civ -- that s not allowed anymore then)

OR they can play multiple civs, but then are not allowed to play one civ too often (like it is now)
That's exactly to prevent people from playing only one civ that we go for this rule. If you want to prove yourself, learn a 2nd and a 3rd civ.
But there are several players who identify themselves as one-civ-players though, like poissondu44, skirmisher1380, irishfaithful, etc. for example. Why do you want to prevent them from playing their civ? Sure, they are a minority, but that cant be your reason to try prevent them from doing what they like i guess. Do you think their advantage in a tournament would be too large if they started as a one-civ-player, or what s your reason?
I'm not preventing them from playing their civ, I'm preventing them from playing their civ every game.
One civ players are a minority atm because of the civ rules, just like otto/iro players were a minority at the start of ESOC, because these civs were banned, but if you remove civ rules, then you'll get more and more one civ players because yes, playing 1 or 2 civs instead of 8 is a huge advantage with no civ rules.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by richard »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
richard wrote:
Show hidden quotes
But there are several players who identify themselves as one-civ-players though, like poissondu44, skirmisher1380, irishfaithful, etc. for example. Why do you want to prevent them from playing their civ? Sure, they are a minority, but that cant be your reason to try prevent them from doing what they like i guess. Do you think their advantage in a tournament would be too large if they started as a one-civ-player, or what s your reason?
I'm not preventing them from playing their civ, I'm preventing them from playing their civ every game.
One civ players are a minority atm because of the civ rules, just like otto/iro players were a minority at the start of ESOC, because these civs were banned, but if you remove civ rules, then you'll get more and more one civ players because yes, playing 1 or 2 civs instead of 8 is a huge advantage with no civ rules.
Did you ever ask a black person not to be black every day, diarouga?

Anyways, i think it would be very interesting to try this option for the next few tourneys, to see if it would come true what you predict. Ofc it may be strong for some players to specialize on 1 civ, but dont forget that you cant counterpick anymore as a one-civ-player. So the overall benefit would be low maybe. I think it also would be interesting how the one-civ-players compete, some of them in their best environment would make an interesting addition to the competition. I doubt that many people would change to one-civ-players because they still would want to counterpick their opponent every game like the faggots that they are ;-)

Jokes aside, it would be nice to hear another answer from you, diarouga.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by n0el »

i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Kaiserklein »

How boring, and how rewarding for 1 civ players
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