Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

France Kaiserklein
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Kaiserklein »

richard wrote:Did you ever ask a black person not to be black every day, diarouga?

Anyways, i think it would be very interesting to try this option for the next few tourneys, to see if it would come true what you predict. Ofc it may be strong for some players to specialize on 1 civ, but dont forget that you cant counterpick anymore as a one-civ-player. So the overall benefit would be low maybe. I think it also would be interesting how the one-civ-players compete, some of them in their best environment would make an interesting addition to the competition. I doubt that many people would change to one-civ-players because they still would want to counterpick their opponent every game like the faggots that they are ;-)

Jokes aside, it would be nice to hear another answer from you, diarouga.
If you decided to stick to a single civ in a game with 14 civs, I think that's your problem if you're fucked in tourneys. Can't expect a competitive scene to let you constantly spam a single civ out of 14.
It's as bad as if you played only GP and asked for a GP only tourney.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Did you ever ask a black person not to be black every day, diarouga?
Sigh. You're born black, you decide to become a one civ bot, that's the difference. And the issue is that if you don't give a strong enough incentive to play more than one or two civs, people will all play one civ only.
Anyways, i think it would be very interesting to try this option for the next few tourneys
Sure, in week-end tournaments though, you need to play more than 1-2 civs to deserve a seasonal title.
to see if it would come true what you predict
It's a meta thing, and these things take time to change. If we were to host just one tournament without civ rules it wouldn't change much, as top players are used to playing many civs, and they'd still do that. However, after 3-4 tournaments, you'd see almost everybody sticking to their best 3 civs because that's the best thing to do.
It's just like what happened in the mono civ cup, people picked their favourite civ, because they wanted to have fun and be creative, but in a competitive mono civ cup, we'd see the same civs and people would be less creative (because creativity isn't that rewarding actually).
Ofc it may be strong for some players to specialize on 1 civ, but dont forget that you cant counterpick anymore as a one-civ-player.
Ye, but some civs can't really be counter picked, that's the issue, and then you end up playing a fair MU on the paper, except the mono civ player has been tryharding this MU for months, while you haven't practiced it that much.
That's what happened with Irishfaithful actually. He was a very good player for sure, but their reason why he got to 2800 elos is that France was the best civ back then (along with Germany, that was before the nat scout and goon nerfs), so you couldn't counterpick him as a result, and he had much more experience in the Fre MUs than his opponents.
I think it also would be interesting how the one-civ-players compete
And we can see that when they pick their main civ. For instance, we all know that bwinner has insane results with otto compared to what he does with his other civs. Mono civ players can use their civ once or twice, and that's already good for them, no need to push that.
I doubt that many people would change to one-civ-players because they still would want to counterpick their opponent every game like the faggots that they are ;-)
Nah, it wouldn't work like that. Many top players used to be 1/2 civ players. Lukas, tabben and kaiser are good examples of that, they could only play 2-3 games when they reached brigadier. The only reason they diversified their civ pool is because they needed to do that in order to perform in tournaments, and the versatile players would switch to a few civs.
Hazza just said previously that he would start playing 90% France and I'd probably start try harding with France and China as well with no civ rules.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

if someone put up the money for a GP-only tournament i don't think there's anything competitively wrong with that? maybe viewers wouldn't find it entertaining but w/e, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules

a player should evolve to suit the parameters of the competition, that's what it means to be a competitor
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

n0el wrote:i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
if you don't play only Brit or Russia, you're fucked.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Cometk »

Riotcoke wrote:
n0el wrote:i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
if you don't play only Brit or Russia, you're fucked.
china has a 100% winrate in every other matchup?
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:if someone put up the money for a GP-only tournament i don't think there's anything competitively wrong with that? maybe viewers wouldn't find it entertaining but w/e, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules

a player should evolve to suit the parameters of the competition, that's what it means to be a competitor
There's nothing wrong with hosting a week-end tour or even a long secondary tournament with no civ rules.

Winning a seasonal tournament (or even going to the semi finals) is a lot of prestige however, and I don't think that you deserve that if you spam just one civ, which is why I wouldn't change the seasonal rules.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
n0el wrote:i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
if you don't play only Brit or Russia, you're fucked.
china has a 100% winrate in every other matchup?
No, but if you were to 100 percent play one civ you have a huge advantage over someone who's the same level as you but plays multiple civs, so even fair mus you're going to win.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:if someone put up the money for a GP-only tournament i don't think there's anything competitively wrong with that? maybe viewers wouldn't find it entertaining but w/e, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules

a player should evolve to suit the parameters of the competition, that's what it means to be a competitor
There's nothing wrong with hosting a week-end tour or even a long secondary tournament with no civ rules.

Winning a seasonal tournament (or even going to the semi finals) is a lot of prestige however, and I don't think that you deserve that if you spam just one civ, which is why I wouldn't change the seasonal rules.
yes, i would also be hesitant to change seasonal rules. i would especially be opposed to Mitoe's original proposals (no rules whatsoever, players agree to every matchup) :biggrin:.

i think we can all agree that, if we wanted to test these rules, a weekend tourney is the field for it.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
n0el wrote:i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
if you don't play only Brit or Russia, you're fucked.
China is actually the TAD France in a way. It doesn't have super bad MUs (although Brit and Russia are very hard to beat), but unless you can FI (ie vs Dutch and Port), you don't have easy MUs.

For instance, Aztec and Iro should beat China on stagecoach maps. Furthermore, Japan, France, Germany and Sioux do quite well against China
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Riotcoke wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Show hidden quotes
china has a 100% winrate in every other matchup?
No, but if you were to 100 percent play one civ you have a huge advantage over someone who's the same level as you but plays multiple civs, so even fair mus you're going to win.
how so? you know exactly what he's going to play, what he's going to do, and you can't come up with a single counter strat? sounds like that person is losing simply because he's bad overall
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Riotcoke wrote:
Cometk wrote:
Show hidden quotes
china has a 100% winrate in every other matchup?
No, but if you were to 100 percent play one civ you have a huge advantage over someone who's the same level as you but plays multiple civs, so even fair mus you're going to win.
Ye that's the point. If you play 100% China, you'll win the fair MUs because you have a better knowledge of these MUs, not because the MUs are China favoured.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
n0el wrote:i for one would love to see skirmisher play china in every game if he wants too, and people counter pick him if they want to.
if you don't play only Brit or Russia, you're fucked.
China is actually the TAD France in a way. It doesn't have super bad MUs (although Brit and Russia are very hard to beat), but unless you can FI (ie vs Dutch and Port), you don't have easy MUs.

For instance, Aztec and Iro should beat China on stagecoach maps. Furthermore, Japan, France, Germany and Sioux do quite well against China
The point I was making though is if someone plays civ 24/7 the only change you have vs them is to play their counter to a high standard, even if overall you're both the same skill level.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by Riotcoke »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
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No, but if you were to 100 percent play one civ you have a huge advantage over someone who's the same level as you but plays multiple civs, so even fair mus you're going to win.
how so? you know exactly what he's going to play, what he's going to do, and you can't come up with a single counter strat? sounds like that person is losing simply because he's bad overall
Some civs don't have direct counters, the game is pretty worked out at this point.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Cometk wrote:if someone put up the money for a GP-only tournament i don't think there's anything competitively wrong with that? maybe viewers wouldn't find it entertaining but w/e, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules

a player should evolve to suit the parameters of the competition, that's what it means to be a competitor
There's nothing wrong with hosting a week-end tour or even a long secondary tournament with no civ rules.

Winning a seasonal tournament (or even going to the semi finals) is a lot of prestige however, and I don't think that you deserve that if you spam just one civ, which is why I wouldn't change the seasonal rules.
yes, i would also be hesitant to change seasonal rules. i would especially be opposed to Mitoe's original proposals (no rules whatsoever, players agree to every matchup) :biggrin:.

i think we can all agree that, if we wanted to test these rules, a weekend tourney is the field for it.
Weekend tourney is the field for testing for sure, but you can't draw a lot of conclusions from these, because players are not going to try super hard, and try to provide interesting games by playing different civs.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Cometk wrote:
Riotcoke wrote:
Show hidden quotes
No, but if you were to 100 percent play one civ you have a huge advantage over someone who's the same level as you but plays multiple civs, so even fair mus you're going to win.
how so? you know exactly what he's going to play, what he's going to do, and you can't come up with a single counter strat? sounds like that person is losing simply because he's bad overall
If you're playing against a predictable civ, I guess you're right, but half of the civs are not really predictable. If you're playing against Japan/France/China/Germany/Brit, you can't really counter strat most of the time because you don't know when your opponent is going to age to fortress, nor what unit composition he'll go for.
It's not an issue, and it's even a good thing, because it shows that you have more than one option with these civs, but it means that you can't blind counter your opponent, and that's why playing only one civ is better.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by chronique »

Tbh we cant compare RE and EP. On RE its obvious than playing full iro/otto/inde (or decent civ like jap/china) is the best way to climb the ladder. On EP i am not realy sure about that.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

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Post by Kaiserklein »

Cometk wrote:if someone put up the money for a GP-only tournament i don't think there's anything competitively wrong with that? maybe viewers wouldn't find it entertaining but w/e, there's nothing inherently wrong with the rules

a player should evolve to suit the parameters of the competition, that's what it means to be a competitor
Lol that applies to anything. There's nothing inherently "wrong" with having a tourney featuring only french mirrors on arkansas either...
But it's obvious that it's just both boring to watch and low skill to play. So what's the point?
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LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

I do admit laughing out loud at richard's analogy. good one
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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: Tournaments should no longer have civilization rules

Post by iNcog »

iNcog wrote:There is a point to be made about civ masters. they have figured out the ins and outs of different maps and match ups. it's depth that should be rewarded in a way as well

lol also rohbrot come back please

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Garja wrote:
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.

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