Case to unban Tit and Kynesie

[Astaroth]

I wanted to make a more indepth post on this, but I'm procrastinating on my work already anyway, so I'll keep this short:

I suggest lifting the tournament ban from Kynesie and Tit (if the latter has not been unbanned already).

Both have been upstanding members of the community for a long time, participating in tournaments and creating enjoyment for the viewers, if not for their opponents. They both made a big mistake, but they have paid for it dearly, in aoe3 terms, being banned for like 1,5 years already and Kynesie even losing his spot in NWC (which he earned rightfully before smurfing on Tit's account).

I'm not going to argue that their behavior was bad and that the ban wasn't deserved. But everyone deserves a second chance, particularly for a first offense. Not to mention that an essentially permanent ban (in internet terms) seems disproportionate when you compare it to the bans issued for comparable offenses. Even if you say their behavior was a lot worse due to the circumstances (money, prestige), does it really justify having an essentially permanent ban (in internet terms), when others were suspended for maybe 6 months?

Now some will say: but they didn't apologize properly! First of all, even if you committed a crime you will be set free after serving the punishment, even if you never apologised. Secondly, what does this mean, exactly? Will they be unbanned if they do apologize? Or is it just an arbitrary ban that will last for as long as a group of people randomly decides, without even naming any clear conditions or requirements for lifting it?

The latter would seem quite unfair. So even if they are not unbanned, a clear time limit to the ban or at least clear terms for lifting it should be stated.

I have no personal interest in this, aside from enjoying watching these two players. I don't even know them, never talked to them. But this sort of punishment just rubs me wrong.

[Squamiger]

i'm not sure they care very much. DE will be out soon and if they want to play in that, ESOC won't really be able to stop them anymore

[Kynesie]

Hi
Nice to meet you @Astaroth , unexpected writing.
I just want to add, for complete, that @Cometk said to me "The earliest possible consideration for an unban will be July 31st, 2020. On that date we’ll review the case."
Having no news for the moment, I conclude to be still ban, and I m fine with this.

[Victor_swe]

I donno if u care about my opinion.
I knew very little about this other then i heard tit and knyesie were banned for smurfing.tonight i read The entire thread about this for no reason I dont know theese guys. The only time i actually saw kyniesie play was when he madlagged then dropped vs umeu i think and there was some kind of coinflip involved.

Always thought theese peeps seemed like shady characters.
Even still, its a game. They deserved to be disquslified from The tournament and a Ban was in place. But i think they should be allowed to play now.
Maybe they cant be trusted and I donno how Hard it is to spot cheating but im sure they will be Hard reviewed by The community in every tournament game they play. So cheating again would be a bad idea from them. Its all about learning from ur mistake amirite? I think they should get a chance to see IF they did.
So basicly let them play. One more strike then permaban for life.

PS. just patch that shit with deleting wallpillars. Wtf a Wall doesnt work without The pillars.

[Sirchillchill]

unban kynesie plz......

[Squamiger]

yes agreed the wall pillar thing is just an unnecessary use of APM. no one who is an aoe2 player coming to try aoe3 for DE is going to enjoy having to do that every time they make a wall. just patch it so deleting the pillar makes a gap. it might have some situational uses then, since it might still be worth it if you want to make a single wall segment in base to protect falcs, but as it is now, it's basically required at all times, if you want to play optimally. seems dumb. could even just reduce the cost of walls in general to make up for it, so no one's build order has to change.

[deleted_user]

Pillar-less walls are a really nice example of game mechanics being manipulated for a minor but not insignificant advantage with a resource cost of apm, which makes it a good mechanic that enriches the skill ceiling of the game. There is also the possibility that the walls are not built correctly, and deleting the pillars can leave a critical gap, and so there is an additional risk for the reward. For instance, H2O never deleted his pillars for this exact reason. You do not need to delete pillars to be a top player, or rather, you can be a top player and not delete pillars, so it is not a requirement for play at all.

Aoe2 requires higher apm in general. I don't think players that are used to manually re-seeding farms are going to be turned off of aoe3 because they can save 50w by deleting the pillars. They are going to be turned off of aoe3 because it's nothing like aoe2.

[Squamiger]

uuuugh all right i guess that makes sense i just hate doing it

[deleted_user]

Waungwana hawagombani.

[007Salt]

I think Kynesie and tit need to make an attempt to convince the ESOC mods that they're sorry.

[The_Lastsamurai]

i would actually like my boy kynesie to be unbanned

[Lukas_L99]

Problem is that they didnt really show they regret it (maybe I missed it, idk?)

[gibson]

The problem is you cant really show regret online. Anyone can type out a paragraph apology without really caring, and half the people who read will just say the apology is fake and they dont really care.

[Astaroth]

Problem is that they didnt really show they regret it (maybe I missed it, idk?)

Now some will say: but they didn't apologize properly! First of all, even if you committed a crime you will be set free after serving the punishment, even if you never apologised. Secondly, what does this mean, exactly? Will they be unbanned if they do apologize? Or is it just an arbitrary ban that will last for as long as a group of people randomly decides, without even naming any clear conditions or requirements for lifting it?

The latter would seem quite unfair. So even if they are not unbanned, a clear time limit to the ban or at least clear terms for lifting it should be stated.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Pillar-less walls are a really nice example of game mechanics being manipulated for a minor but not insignificant advantage with a resource cost of apm, which makes it a good mechanic that enriches the skill ceiling of the game. There is also the possibility that the walls are not built correctly, and deleting the pillars can leave a critical gap, and so there is an additional risk for the reward. For instance, H2O never deleted his pillars for this exact reason. You do not need to delete pillars to be a top player, or rather, you can be a top player and not delete pillars, so it is not a requirement for play at all.

Aoe2 requires higher apm in general. I don't think players that are used to manually re-seeding farms are going to be turned off of aoe3 because they can save 50w by deleting the pillars. They are going to be turned off of aoe3 because it's nothing like aoe2.

Ye, it takes extra APM and risk. bsop arguably lost the Fre vs India game in the first seasonal against H2O because there was a gap in his wall.

[HUMMAN]

The problem is you cant really show regret online. Anyone can type out a paragraph apology without really caring, and half the people who read will just say the apology is fake and they dont really care.

sir_musket's apology was sincere and it worked

This thread is like Socrates's Apology

[Squamiger]

if the history of twitter in the last 5 years shows us anything, it's that you never apologize, never surrender, and never log off. this is how trump became president

[Cocaine]

Whats stopping them from making a new account and smurfing on that? I don't get it

[[Armag] diarouga]

Whats stopping them from making a new account and smurfing on that? I don't get it

They'd get caught.

[Squamiger]

Ye, it takes extra APM and risk. bsop arguably lost the Fre vs India game in the first seasonal against H2O because there was a gap in his wall.

if the risk is that the wall will either do what it's supposed to do (create gaps) or bug (create a solid wall), doesn't that sort of reduce the mechanic down to a risk based on rng? Which is usually frowned upon in RTS, and a reason why people have been getting mad at random crate starts for so long

[deleted_user]

Unban my honey Kynesie

[[Armag] diarouga]

Ye, it takes extra APM and risk. bsop arguably lost the Fre vs India game in the first seasonal against H2O because there was a gap in his wall.

if the risk is that the wall will either do what it's supposed to do (create gaps) or bug (create a solid wall), doesn't that sort of reduce the mechanic down to a risk based on rng? Which is usually frowned upon in RTS, and a reason why people have been getting mad at random crate starts for so long

It's not RNG, it's a risk based on how accurate and fast you can be. Likewise, some people are greedy when they try to micro, and lose a fight a better player would have won, because they made mistakes.

[Kaiserklein]

The problem is you cant really show regret online. Anyone can type out a paragraph apology without really caring, and half the people who read will just say the apology is fake and they dont really care.

Yeah, typing an apology doesn't necessarily mean you care. But not typing one does mean you don't care.

Now some will say: but they didn't apologize properly! First of all, even if you committed a crime you will be set free after serving the punishment, even if you never apologised. Secondly, what does this mean, exactly? Will they be unbanned if they do apologize? Or is it just an arbitrary ban that will last for as long as a group of people randomly decides, without even naming any clear conditions or requirements for lifting it?

I think you have to see it more as something like good conduct time, or extenuating circumstances. I think not showing remorse does have impact on how harsh the punishment is, right? Now add the fact we're in a small community where we all know each other, so apologies tend to matter even more.
Besides yes, it actually is an arbitrary ban that will last for as long as a group of people decides (not that randomly, though). I think that's what they said, it's a ban of indefinite duration.


Anyway, I don't really have an opinion on whether they should be unbanned or not.

[deleted_user]

Ye, it takes extra APM and risk. bsop arguably lost the Fre vs India game in the first seasonal against H2O because there was a gap in his wall.

if the risk is that the wall will either do what it's supposed to do (create gaps) or bug (create a solid wall), doesn't that sort of reduce the mechanic down to a risk based on rng? Which is usually frowned upon in RTS, and a reason why people have been getting mad at random crate starts for so long

It's not RNG, it's a risk based on how accurate and fast you can be. Likewise, some people are greedy when they try to micro, and lose a fight a better player would have won, because they made mistakes.

I like how some claim its so strong in fact you need to put a lot of effort to be sure you made walls corretly else your whole walls will be useless. basicly a gamble where you possibly could lose all your wall advantage to save some wood

[Lukas_L99]

Problem is that they didnt really show they regret it (maybe I missed it, idk?)

Now some will say: but they didn't apologize properly! First of all, even if you committed a crime you will be set free after serving the punishment, even if you never apologised. Secondly, what does this mean, exactly? Will they be unbanned if they do apologize? Or is it just an arbitrary ban that will last for as long as a group of people randomly decides, without even naming any clear conditions or requirements for lifting it?

The latter would seem quite unfair. So even if they are not unbanned, a clear time limit to the ban or at least clear terms for lifting it should be stated.

They’re not in prison or something like in your example. Why would you unban someone if they haven’t shown a sign of remorse and might do it again?