Which of these do you consider cheating?

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 09 Oct 2015, 01:53

There are several things that can be changed in the official game that have not specifically been ruled on by the official moderators. Do you consider any of them cheating?

Papist · Post by **Papist** » 09 Oct 2015, 01:55

Aside from the obvious stuff (zoom mod, etc), I consider any color or automation mods to be cheating.

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 09 Oct 2015, 02:22

Color mods have always made me wonder. In some ways I think that they are a good thing. I've played with several people who are color blind. I recommend that they use the AOE II color mod (available on Heaven games) and modify the color codes until they can distinguish the individual players. Modifying unit colors in this way only changes them for you so if, for example, you change a player color to brown and make it hard to see, it is only hard to see for you as the rest of the players will still see it as one of the standard colors.

That said, modifying color for individual units might give one an advantage. A bright blue culverin that only you can see probably crosses the line into cheating. However, brown fat cows don't in my opinion because there are other ways the game shows you that they are fat anyway. For those who might be visually impaired it may be hard to see the subtle difference between a skinny, half fattened or fully fattened cow. Giving them a color clue wouldn't be so much of an advantage as it would just bring them on level with other players.

Dolan · Post by **Dolan** » 09 Oct 2015, 02:53

This is actually debatable.

For example, there are a few hotkeys in game such as "Select all units of same type" which are automated tasks condensed into one single press of keys. So, you cannot claim that every automated task is a cheat. There already is an official "cheat" in the game, by this principle. "Select all units of the same type" is a macro and a very useful one, at that.

On the other hand, the game has obvious issues with hotkeys. The missing Agra fort hotkeys were a major blunder. So, you cannot claim that everything that was not in the original game but fixes game issues is a cheat. If so, using software to improve your mouse polling rate is a cheat. Playing with a laggy connection is a cheat, because you are trying to lower the skill cap on purpose and make the player with the better/faster micro unable to use it.

Not only game modifications can be cheats (but also things external to the game, which are used to influnce how the game plays) and not all game modifications afford an unfair advantage (especially if they fix game issues, like bugs or missing hotkeys).

Cometk · Post by **Cometk** » 09 Oct 2015, 03:11

i understand it's a bit of hyperbole, but how is the select all units hotkey a macro or cheat? it does the same thing as double click or the all-military waypoint that's pinned on the UI near the minimap. there are also similar, more specific hotkeys such as "find all military", "find all barracks", "find all warships", etc.

gibson · Post by **gibson** » 09 Oct 2015, 03:21

I feel like something that saves purely clicks is not a cheating.... Outside of that though things start to get a little hazy

howlingwolfpaw · Post by **howlingwolfpaw** » 09 Oct 2015, 03:22

with being able to change thins like this is it possible for players to change other things? like subtly cheating by adding 5% to villager start stats? who would ever really know but as it stacks would add up. I know nothing of this type of thing nor would ever want to do it. Its kind of a shame there is no official patch for this. I have the rotator and it does offer some advantages other players don't have. nothing game breaking but its nice to have. not sure when it really becomes a big problem all does seem questionable. i wish fat cows were easier to see but don't think culvs should be blue. and forgive me, what is transparent UI ?

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 09 Oct 2015, 03:55

This is the transparent UI. It's been around for years. You can't click on units under the see-through portion. Recall that the game gives you the ability to fully minimize the standard UI too, which allows you to see and select units on the whole screen.

[img]http://i.ytimg.com/vi/t_9vLE55gjg/hqdefault.jpg[/img]

Post by **_H2O** » 09 Oct 2015, 04:25

In WCG any non-stock UI was banned. The only reason we dont ban that sort of stuff now is because you cannot enforce agra hotkeys or UI's in an online tournament. I learned that lesson the hard way

zoom · Post by **zoom** » 09 Oct 2015, 04:28

Are you saying you lost to someone in a tournament because they used Agra Fort hotkeys?

#BRUTAL

evilcheadar · Post by **evilcheadar** » 09 Oct 2015, 04:53

Wait was does an "Agra hotkey" do?

DivineFire · Post by **DivineFire** » 09 Oct 2015, 05:14

evilcheadar wrote:Wait was does an "Agra hotkey" do?

It''s a hacked hotkey that lets you just build more agra forts like russian musketeers.

howlingwolfpaw · Post by **howlingwolfpaw** » 09 Oct 2015, 07:51

oh i thought it just keyed you in to that building to train troops... that is definitely a cheat #agra

DivineFire · Post by **DivineFire** » 09 Oct 2015, 08:28

Sorry I shouldn't troll, I'm not actually totally sure what it does, I think it's just a set of hotkeys for training units from the agra fort where normally you'd have to just click on them.

[Armag] diarouga · Post by **[Armag] diarouga** » 09 Oct 2015, 08:30

Lol, that troll

DivineFire · Post by **DivineFire** » 09 Oct 2015, 08:31

I feel bad now.

howlingwolfpaw · Post by **howlingwolfpaw** » 09 Oct 2015, 09:20

i ate the troll bait!

howlingwolfpaw · Post by **howlingwolfpaw** » 09 Oct 2015, 09:21

all you would have to do is make it a control item anyway

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 09 Oct 2015, 10:19

I would consider Agra Fort hotkeys to be a bug fix, much like modifying the hotkey file in order to be able to make goats from a village in the same way that you can make sheep from a pen (recall my other post about how the developers mistakenly used the word "pig" instead of "goat" in the code to remap hotkeys in the game). I believe the rotator falls under this category too -- something that was originally intended for the game (the code is there) but left out for some reason (either inadvertently or because there was a bug that the developers didn't have time to fix).

It's interesting how many of you consider the transparent UI to be cheating, especially as it's been available since just after the game came out (2006), no moderators have ever banned for it and half the players over lieutenant use it. It's also interesting that almost no "experts" ever play the game with the UI minimized, which is a standard game feature that gives you access to the entire screen.

Even though there are over 300 posts on how to install them, I never heard a moderator say anything about user-created UIs beyond ES_Swinger's "we'll investigate" back in 2006. I think that this is because the available user-created UIs don't really add anything that's not available to a player on other ways anyhow. Also, unless the game is recorded, streamed or a screenshot taken and posted there is no way of telling if someone has an alternate UI installed or not.

Speaking of ES_Swinger (Chris Rupp), he's the one in the hat -- he left ES to further his music:

[video src="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTTid4CBcd4"][/video]

spear · Post by **spear** » 09 Oct 2015, 10:52

Any addition to the game except official patch etc IMO is a cheat. Why? Because it is not available to all the users. The USER mods add some BONUS to the game either BIG or SMALL, that's why they are MADE.

And what is Auto-Cow Mod? like eating cow automatically? Is it really possible? I think it is highly impossible. if someone did it then this is going to affect other things too.

Papist · Post by **Papist** » 09 Oct 2015, 11:25

dolan wrote:This is actually debatable.

For example, there are a few hotkeys in game such as "Select all units of same type" which are automated tasks condensed into one single press of keys. So, you cannot claim that every automated task is a cheat. There already is an official "cheat" in the game, by this principle. "Select all units of the same type" is a macro and a very useful one, at that.

On the other hand, the game has obvious issues with hotkeys. The missing Agra fort hotkeys were a major blunder. So, you cannot claim that everything that was not in the original game but fixes game issues is a cheat. If so, using software to improve your mouse polling rate is a cheat. Playing with a laggy connection is a cheat, because you are trying to lower the skill cap on purpose and make the player with the better/faster micro unable to use it.

Not only game modifications can be cheats (but also things external to the game, which are used to influnce how the game plays) and not all game modifications afford an unfair advantage (especially if they fix game issues, like bugs or missing hotkeys).

There is a big difference - one is an official and one is third party stuff, not available to the run of the mill user.

DerMaxinator · Post by **DerMaxinator** » 09 Oct 2015, 11:37

I play this game for a long time now, but I actually have no clue what most of the things in the poll are...

thebritish · Post by **thebritish** » 09 Oct 2015, 12:33

metis wrote:Also, unless the game is recorded, streamed or a screenshot taken and posted there is no way of telling if someone has an alternate UI installed or not.

How can you see if somebody have alternate UI installed?
Dont you use the Ui provided in the record game when watching specific player?

#confused

Metis · Post by **Metis** » 09 Oct 2015, 12:38

An auto cowing mod would cause the game to automatically produce livestock without the user having to control group and hotkey pens. For instance, when I'm playing Brits I have to periodically press 7, U and 8, I to make more cows and sheep. Such a mod would definitely imbalance the game. I included it in the polls as a control -- an example of something that was so egregious that it should receive top votes as a cheat.

yemshi · Post by **yemshi** » 09 Oct 2015, 12:52

Everything that is not part of the original game is a cheat.
FP's, NE and so are not a cheat.

ESOC

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