Help me understand Civ Counterpicking and Map Favoritism

[cowhax]

I think I was watching a cast for the Spring series by H2O and it was Garja and Boneng playing. They were set to play on the new Siberia map but it took them over 15 minutes to decide on a civ because Garja wanted to mirror match Boneng with Japan, and for some reason Boneng didn't oblige. (At least I think that was the civ choice).

So what ended up happening is they had to blind pick which almost seems like a random select. I think Boneng went with Japan, and Garja went with Germany. But H2O was saying that Siberia favors Japan more than any other civ. And I've heard the same thing regarding other civs and maps throughout my time watching commentated matches.

I've yet to understand how maps can favor one civ over all others, or how one civ can be a bad match up for another civ, or maybe 2 other civs, but is good for these other 2 civs (something like that). So please somebody with the knowledge... explain.

[Good ol Ivan]

Siberia prevents building a fb on the middle, and japs are a really strong civ cept for the fact they are vulnerable to early pressure.

As for civs it depends on the MU
e.g. germans have free uhlans, and uhlans are good for raids. But raiding japs is hard, so that's a disadvantage.
Some civs are unique for x or y, but are vulnerable to z - and z is really easy and lethal for another civ.

[edeholland]

Don't forget the tower on Siberia and the excellent hunts which are a huge deal.

[CuCkO0]

Don''t forget the tower on Siberia and the excellent hunts which are a huge deal.

Adding onto this:

Japan isn''t really a map dependent civ, it can survive on the worst maps due to their lack of having to venture out to gather.

Siberia is a brilliant map for hunts so the Jap player can lay down shrines and use them to their maximum potential as opposed to shrining on a huntless map.

The tower is a massive help due to Japan being a slow startup civ. The map is pretty big and with that tower and possible walling and the right defending skills, it''d be hard to rush or damage, the guy rushing would almost certainly come off worse.

[_venox_]

The wood treasures are OP,with 2 monks with their heaven strike and their poof thingy easy to get.

[Jaeger]

In general, all civs have time periods in games when they area really good, and time periods when they are very vulnerable. If civ A's strong period usually overlaps with civ B's vulnerable period and there is big enough gap in the civ's power at that time such that civ A can almost always win, you have a counterciv. For example, Japan's weak period is early age 2 because it takes a while for their investment that they have to make in their eco to pay off' one of France's stronger periods is early age 2, because they don't have to invest as much as other civs to have a good eco. There is a big enough gap between the power of these civs in early age 2 such that France almost always wins, so French could be called a counterciv to Japan. There are also times when once civ is just stronger than another through the whole game (or at least for a long enough time), and there is no chance for the weaker civ to ever win he game. For example, Japan is a better civ than Iriquois in the fortress age and beyond, but Iro is stronger for the whole time before that so they can just win the game early.

Now to the Japan-Germany matchup. There are some periods when Germany's army is stronger than Japan, but there isn't really a point where that difference in strength is enough for Germany to win if the Japan player doesnt't make too many mistakes. Also, Japan gets better and better as the game goes on longer, but Germany tends to level off after a while, so after Japan just defends for long enough they will be in a position to be able to end the game. It's not completely unwinnable for Germany, but it is hard.

When people talk about certain civs being favored on certain maps, it can be multiple things. Most often, it's the resource count/distribution on the map. For example, British is a civilization that requires a lot of resources to operate, while India doesn't require as many resources. This means that a map with sparse resources is more favorable for an Indian player than for a British player. Another aspect that can favor particular civ on a certain map is the layout of the map. For example, Germany is a civilization which likes to have a lot of hand cavalry in their army. However, if there are a lot of obstacles on the map such as trees, hand cavalry will naturally not be as effective as on an open field where the cavalry has more room to maneuver faster. This means that maps such as New England which have a lot of trees and bottlenecks are not really in favor of Germany. The third factor about a map favoring certain civs is the presence of livestock. Some civs such as India and China get a much bigger boost from livestock than most of the other civs, so they are more favored by maps with a lot of livestock. There are smaller details of some maps which can give certain civs an edge or disadvantage, but I feel like I covered the main topics.

[fard]

Lol i would not say that french is counterciv to Japan. Japan has no counterciv they have their berries at home they have 2 explorers which can spread the shrines around the map. If u get rushed send CM and wall or undont even need to send CM. and u can hide ur vills in the back on berries and ur explorers on the map for shrines. I had enough games me french vs japan but it turned mostly into a 15min + game. Even if i rush with musk or go for a semi. I would say that japan is the civ which isnt counterable. Except a mirror xD
Who agree?

[CuCkO0]

I think you're on the right lines Fard. I think Japan is more easy to counter than people think. I mean I think it was aizamk that said to me that Japan's meta at the moment is becoming less and less effective and people are learning and knowing how to counter and challenge such play.

I however wouldn't say France is a direct counter to Japan.

Its still pretty gay though when people sit behind walls like that.

[_H2O]

after the patch that nerfed japan, they have fallen to the middle of the pack for sure

[cowhax]

Thanks for the insight everybody. So any match up imbalance isn't just because of the civ in itself, but dependent on the maps as well. And regarding Siberia, Japan has it good because the map promotes passivity due to the area in the middle you can't build on, and has a lot of hunts available? Couldn't you build a forward outpost and/or barracks on Japan's side for when you get your military shipments out in age 2? So that'd reduce the walk time for a raid or whatever. I mean it could be scouted fairly easily, but seeing as Japan doesn't really go for much military to start, they would have a hard time preventing you from getting your buildings up. You could even split up your buildings. Put an outpost Northeast of their base and a barracks somewhere near the trade post line.

You know, I bet Russia would be better vs Japan than Germany because their blockhouse and outposts are the same building. Or any Native civ.

[Nymphomaniac]

You know, I bet Russia would be better vs Japan than Germany because their blockhouse and outposts are the same building. Or any Native civ.

Russia even worse than Germany on a map like siberia. A good japanese player can build optimal wall and abuse yumi attack quite effectively. Besides, Russia is a civ which likes long colonial wars, but vs Japan it will be on backfoot. Germany is better because of their OP early game economy and better units, like skirms >' strelets, uhlans >' cossacks etc.

[Garja]

Thanks for the insight everybody. So any match up imbalance isn''t just because of the civ in itself, but dependent on the maps as well. And regarding Siberia, Japan has it good because the map promotes passivity due to the area in the middle you can''t build on, and has a lot of hunts available? Couldn''t you build a forward outpost and/or barracks on Japan''s side for when you get your military shipments out in age 2? So that''d reduce the walk time for a raid or whatever. I mean it could be scouted fairly easily, but seeing as Japan doesn''t really go for much military to start, they would have a hard time preventing you from getting your buildings up. You could even split up your buildings. Put an outpost Northeast of their base and a barracks somewhere near the trade post line.

You know, I bet Russia would be better vs Japan than Germany because their blockhouse and outposts are the same building. Or any Native civ.

You can rush on siberia. People sometimes do that (especially cause often you don''t expect it) but it''s just suboptimal compared to other maps.
The problem is not pulling off the rush but doing the contain part. Since the map is too big you have hard time denying the resources to the opponent or roaming to kill shrines. Also because the map is wide open few cavalry (or ashi) can do almost the same damage of a rush but with less investment.
Regarding the tourney tho, the reason why you are pushed to play japan is because Siberia is the most unconsistent map in the pool and japan is less map dependant. I was actually lucky with my spawn vs Boneng.

[hellno]

Lol i would not say that french is counterciv to Japan. Japan has no counterciv they have their berries at home they have 2 explorers which can spread the shrines around the map. If u get rushed send CM and wall or undont even need to send CM. and u can hide ur vills in the back on berries and ur explorers on the map for shrines. I had enough games me french vs japan but it turned mostly into a 15min + game. Even if i rush with musk or go for a semi. I would say that japan is the civ which isnt counterable. Except a mirror xD
Who agree?

I think Japan has actually got quite many countercivs. Japan dies to Otto FF 11 out of 10 times. Playing as Japan vs Azzy or Iro is also almost suicide because of their rush ability. Same with Russia or India sometimes. Ye Yumi behind a wall is quite strong, but when being rushed Japan has to sacrifice the eco and gets often outboomed. At least that is my experience

[cowhax]

@garja would it be unreasonable to do a deck + build order meant to act as a "manhunt" for the Japanese monks? Like if you know you can't effectively harass their economy, or cost effectively take out shrines for the units you invested, to just focus on hunting down their monks so they either have to use vills to build shrines, or build in base where hunts will be less available. Seems any Japanese game I watch, the Japanese player's monks are free to put shrines up anywhere within reason and only the shrines are in danger of being attacked.

@nymphomaniac of course cossacks are worse than Uhlan, they only take up 1 pop.

@hellno that seems to be the main idea behind counterciv. Is that if you're playing a certain civ on a certain map, you might want to do the "standard" build which could be risky but rewarding. Japan doesn't really have any alternative to turtling. That's probably why one of their consulate allies is Ports.

[Good ol Ivan]

@garja would it be unreasonable to do a deck + build order meant to act as a "manhunt" for the Japanese monks? Like if you know you can''t effectively harass their economy, or cost effectively take out shrines for the units you invested, to just focus on hunting down their monks so they either have to use vills to build shrines, or build in base where hunts will be less available. Seems any Japanese game I watch, the Japanese player''s monks are free to put shrines up anywhere within reason and only the shrines are in danger of being attacked.

@nymphomaniac of course cossacks are worse than Uhlan, they only take up 1 pop.

@hellno that seems to be the main idea behind counterciv. Is that if you''re playing a certain civ on a certain map, you might want to do the "standard" build which could be risky but rewarding. Japan doesn''t really have any alternative to turtling. That''s probably why one of their consulate allies is Ports.

Port is one of their consulate allies because of the Nanban trade.

[Garja]

@garja would it be unreasonable to do a deck + build order meant to act as a "manhunt" for the Japanese monks? Like if you know you can''t effectively harass their economy, or cost effectively take out shrines for the units you invested, to just focus on hunting down their monks so they either have to use vills to build shrines, or build in base where hunts will be less available. Seems any Japanese game I watch, the Japanese player''s monks are free to put shrines up anywhere within reason and only the shrines are in danger of being attacked.

You often do that with german cav semi or with 4 kanya from iros. But making a whole strat based on that is not worth it.

[cowhax]

Port is one of their consulate allies because of the Nanban trade.

I suck at making jokes.

@Garja that makes enough sense. I guess you could make it part of your MO how to deal with monks rather than overestimate Japanese strategy and really commit to keeping the monks at bay.