Treaty Balance Changes Notes

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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

swedenpaul wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:Pretty sure they are not the strongest cav anymore and that they are instant is not really a big deal lol


Do you have the the stats -Hp/ Speed/ Damage- on Imperial?

"Not a big deal lol"


Are you sirious?! Not a big deal? Really?! I mean you sound like you never ever played anything but Andes. And as far as I know this is supposed to be a treaty patch and not an Andes PR25+ patch :!:


Just open protoy.xml and make the changes: 450HP, 23 attack. Then start a custom game in Imperial and check. You may also want to send cards from the deck to see stats of fully-uped Cuirassier.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

Jerom wrote: Maybe you can add another 14 'treaty' civs that feature treaty balance changes.


That's a great idea. Unfortunately it's not possible to implement that many civs into Age of Empires 3 (see Napoleonic Era mod).
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

_NiceKING_ wrote:Just open protoy.xml and make the changes: 450HP, 23 attack. Then start a custom game in Imperial and check. You may also want to send cards from the deck to see stats of fully-uped Cuirassier.


I'm not at home these days. Also honestly I don't know how to change the files.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Gichtenlord »

swedenpaul wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:Pretty sure they are not the strongest cav anymore and that they are instant is not really a big deal lol


Do you have the the stats -Hp/ Speed/ Damage- on Imperial?

"Not a big deal lol"


Are you sirious?! Not a big deal? Really?! I mean you sound like you never ever played anything but Andes. And as far as I know this is supposed to be a treaty patch and not an Andes PR25+ patch :!:

On a lower it might be a problem, because they are not good in keeping pop up, but I dont think it should a great impact on higher levels on different maps
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by zoom »

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Af0wXeN6_FY[/video]
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by martinspjuth »

Gichtenlord wrote:Pretty sure they are not the strongest cav anymore and that they are instant is not really a big deal lol


What cav is stronger than gendarms??!? If there really is a standard trainable cav unit that is stronger than gends in the patch, then you have nerfed gendarms way to much. Gendarms SHOULD be the strongest trainable unit in the game. If keeping them the strongest unit makes them OP, then increase their pop or cost instead (or find other ways to balance france).

And ofc training them instant is a big deal. As Swedenpaul said, have you ever played anything besides andes? Giving a civ instant hand cav in maps where no other civ gets instant cav is giving them a hugh advantage. With instant gends, he can emidiatly punish the enemy if he gets a little low on anticav. And he can instantly spam gends to take care of artillery that is out of position. And since we arn't playing on andes in this example, the enemy can't instantly spam goons to make up for his lack in anticav. I never dreamed of that you would keep gendarms instant when nerfing them. I thought removing that from them would be something obvious.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

martinspjuth wrote: I never dreamed of that you would keep gendarms instant when nerfing them. I thought removing that from them would be something obvious.


@martinspjuth I'm glad you understood my upset attitude to the gendarme issue, the moment Gichtenlord said that, I kinda lost my faith in the creators.

The spam obviously needs to be removed.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Gichtenlord »

swedenpaul wrote:
martinspjuth wrote: I never dreamed of that you would keep gendarms instant when nerfing them. I thought removing that from them would be something obvious.


@martinspjuth I'm glad you understood my upset attitude to the gendarme issue, the moment Gichtenlord said that, I kinda lost my faith in the creators.

The spam obviously needs to be removed.

Well, sux.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Gichtenlord »

martinspjuth wrote:
Gichtenlord wrote:Pretty sure they are not the strongest cav anymore and that they are instant is not really a big deal lol


What cav is stronger than gendarms??!? If there really is a standard trainable cav unit that is stronger than gends in the patch, then you have nerfed gendarms way to much. Gendarms SHOULD be the strongest trainable unit in the game. If keeping them the strongest unit makes them OP, then increase their pop or cost instead (or find other ways to balance france).

And ofc training them instant is a big deal. As Swedenpaul said, have you ever played anything besides andes? Giving a civ instant hand cav in maps where no other civ gets instant cav is giving them a hugh advantage. With instant gends, he can emidiatly punish the enemy if he gets a little low on anticav. And he can instantly spam gends to take care of artillery that is out of position. And since we arn't playing on andes in this example, the enemy can't instantly spam goons to make up for his lack in anticav. I never dreamed of that you would keep gendarms instant when nerfing them. I thought removing that from them would be something obvious.

First off: Andes will always be the main focus for balance or to be precise maps with inca tech on it. Cuirs are not able to be costefficient in huge numbers anymore, so why is it a big thing? As better you get as more unsignificant instant gendarmes will be, lol
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by martinspjuth »

I know andes is the main focus for the patch. I have nothing against that (actually prefer that it is).
But removing instant gends from France will not affect the andes gameplay at all. And since you obviously think it isnt a big thing, why not just remove instant gends. All you have done is argue that it isnt a big deal, i have not seen a single argument of why it would be better to keep instant gends.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

martinspjuth wrote:I know andes is the main focus for the patch. I have nothing against that (actually prefer that it is).
But removing instant gends from France will not affect the andes gameplay at all. And since you obviously think it isnt a big thing, why not just remove instant gends. All you have done is argue that it isnt a big deal, i have not seen a single argument of why it would be better to keep instant gends.


Exactly.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _PI »

I'm not going to join into the current pissing contest here, but keep in mind every change that we have in this patch is subject to change. We are currently actively in the process of discussing changes to Gendarme, and we will be removing the train speed reduction from the Age 4 card for them (thus making them non-instant on other maps). However, we are not modifying it right now because it could affect balance more than we'd like before the invitational.

Also, please keep in mind that yelling at us does not help us to get things done faster, and we are all doing this in our spare time. I work a full-time job, and I am currently the only person actively making the modifications for the Treaty Fanpatch (Matt/Milky was before, but he works even more hours than I do). Gichtenlord, Dicktator, Lukas, Milky, Charlemagen, and others are all providing input and different points of view on what changes need to be made, and we trying to ensure that we debate any changes among our group and play test them once we reach a consensus on what we'd like to test.

We also welcome constructive feedback, and will factor it into our decision making as we make and test future changes.

On a completely separate note, here is the current change log that shows all the changes we have made and will be seen in the Treaty Titans Invitational: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rsm ... sp=sharing
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

_PI wrote:I'm not going to join into the current pissing contest here, but keep in mind every change that we have in this patch is subject to change. We are currently actively in the process of discussing changes to Gendarme, and we will be removing the train speed reduction from the Age 4 card for them (thus making them non-instant on other maps). However, we are not modifying it right now because it could affect balance more than we'd like before the invitational.

Also, please keep in mind that yelling at us does not help us to get things done faster, and we are all doing this in our spare time. I work a full-time job, and I am currently the only person actively making the modifications for the Treaty Fanpatch (Matt/Milky was before, but he works even more hours than I do). Gichtenlord, Dicktator, Lukas, Milky, Charlemagen, and others are all providing input and different points of view on what changes need to be made, and we trying to ensure that we debate any changes among our group and play test them once we reach a consensus on what we'd like to test.

We also welcome constructive feedback, and will factor it into our decision making as we make and test future changes.

On a completely separate note, here is the current change log that shows all the changes we have made and will be seen in the Treaty Titans Invitational: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rsm ... sp=sharing

Explorers are now tagged as Heavy Infantry.
Bandeirantes (2 Explorer) shipment now reduces the HP of all explorers by 200.

Why give explorers HI tag if you already nurfed the ports explorers by reducing 200HP?
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _H2O »

200 hp is not a big nerf on 3k hp skirm for 100golf
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by lesllamas »

100 golf!
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by lesllamas »

Also I'm not sure I'd call them skirms, more like guard musks with 3k hp.

edit: not to say that reducing their hp isn't a good idea lol
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

_PI wrote:I'm not going to join into the current pissing contest here ...


There is no "pissing contest" here. It's just two players pointing out their opinion about the ridiculousness of instant gendarmes.

_PI wrote: we will be removing the train speed reduction


Sounds better now.

_PI wrote: However, we are not modifying it right now because it could affect balance more than we'd like before the invitational.


As long as in the final version, the problem is solved, I'm convenient. Although I don't see what could affect balance so drastically in removing the train time.

_PI wrote: Also, please keep in mind that yelling at us does not help us to get things done faster, and we are all doing this in our spare time.


I know that and I highly appreciate your work. But there was no "yelling" especially not to your address. A discussion obviously needs to be factual but I do honestly not see any reason in seriously discussing the gendarme issue over a long period of time, as it is the most hated thing about France.

_PI wrote: Gichtenlord, Dicktator, Lukas, Milky, Charlemagen, and others are all providing input and different points of view on what changes need to be made ...


Why not also take a look at what the remaining community thinks about certain issues, I mean those are the best treaty players, still they might not know every single bug or detail, and it for sure only enhances the whole situation when more players are involved.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by martinspjuth »

_PI wrote:I'm not going to join into the current pissing contest here, but keep in mind every change that we have in this patch is subject to change. We are currently actively in the process of discussing changes to Gendarme, and we will be removing the train speed reduction from the Age 4 card for them (thus making them non-instant on other maps). However, we are not modifying it right now because it could affect balance more than we'd like before the invitational.

Also, please keep in mind that yelling at us does not help us to get things done faster, and we are all doing this in our spare time. I work a full-time job, and I am currently the only person actively making the modifications for the Treaty Fanpatch (Matt/Milky was before, but he works even more hours than I do). Gichtenlord, Dicktator, Lukas, Milky, Charlemagen, and others are all providing input and different points of view on what changes need to be made, and we trying to ensure that we debate any changes among our group and play test them once we reach a consensus on what we'd like to test.

We also welcome constructive feedback, and will factor it into our decision making as we make and test future changes.

On a completely separate note, here is the current change log that shows all the changes we have made and will be seen in the Treaty Titans Invitational: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Rsm ... sp=sharing


Ofc we know the patch is still undergoing testing and changes, otherwise it would be released right? We can however not know what you guys are discussing in your private group, so sorry if we bring up stuff you already decided to change but not have had the time yet. We can onlywork with the material you have given us.

No more instant gends, Great!

I am really sorry if i came of offensive or as yelling. I have full respect for that you do this on your free time and i highly appreciate the work you have done (i think i already said that in a earlier post, but if you want i can add it in my signature ;) ).

And as for the balance changes over all i think you have done a great job. Even If the patch were to be released right now it would be insanly much better than Re. Im only trying to give you some feedback on your work to perhaps make it even better. Ofc i want to see argument of why i am wrong if you dissagree with me.

Will be really Nice to see the patch in work in Titan invitentional, that's another good initative.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _PI »

_NiceKING_ wrote:
Explorers are now tagged as Heavy Infantry.
Bandeirantes (2 Explorer) shipment now reduces the HP of all explorers by 200.

Why give explorers HI tag if you already nurfed the ports explorers by reducing 200HP?


Good question. Our initial testing after we put in the Heavy Infantry tag showed that they were still a little too strong, so we wanted to reduce the HP of each individually. As _H2O said, this still might not be enough but we don't have enough testing in yet to decide that for sure yet.

swedenpaul wrote:
_PI wrote:I'm not going to join into the current pissing contest here ...


There is no "pissing contest" here. It's just two players pointing out their opinion about the ridiculousness of instant gendarmes.


When you start off by immediately saying "the ridiculousness of" and also say that because of Gichtenlord expressing his opinions you've "lost faith" in the team developing the patch, I would consider that to be a pissing contest and yelling/attacking our team. I'm not going to comment further on this, but try to understand that we can't act on "that's ridiculous". You need to give actionable suggestions like "Gendarme seem like they're still too good for their cost, and the instant train time gives French an unnecessary advantage on other maps", and leave it at that. We'll see that and factor it into our discussions.

swedenpaul wrote:
_PI wrote: However, we are not modifying it right now because it could affect balance more than we'd like before the invitational.


As long as in the final version, the problem is solved, I'm convenient. Although I don't see what could affect balance so drastically in removing the train time.


My apologies, let me clarify. I meant that in reference to the Gendarme changes we are currently discussing as a whole. We felt it was better to simply leave Gendarme in their current state rather than make any changes directly before a tournament, as we don't believe it will drastically impact the highest levels of play as they are right now.

swedenpaul wrote:
_PI wrote: Gichtenlord, Dicktator, Lukas, Milky, Charlemagen, and others are all providing input and different points of view on what changes need to be made ...


Why not also take a look at what the remaining community thinks about certain issues, I mean those are the best treaty players, still they might not know every single bug or detail, and it for sure only enhances the whole situation when more players are involved.


As I already said, we appreciate constructive feedback and factor it into our decision making. However, it is impractical to think that we have the capacity to incorporate every single member of the community into the discussions and testing, especially in the early stages of development. That would be an even more significant drain on our time to coordinate, for what is likely less valuable input than that of the absolute top-tier players for whom balance is a bigger issue. The cost compared to the benefit it brings is not there, especially early on.

Once it is officially released, we will be closely monitoring the opinions of the community and contrasting that to the opinions of top-tier players to see where additional tweaks are needed.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

@_PI

"instant is not really a big deal lol" didn't sound factual to me either tbh.

I just took for granted that from 2lt and up, everybody knew the annoying gendarme spam. And Martin and I were suprised that Gich didn't agree directly on that. And, for me, as I always had a very professional picture of the top tier players, it was Sth I didn't expect at all, so without offending someone I expressed my opinion when I said I lost the faith (for a moment). Not to insult, at least as far as I understand, losing faith isn't an insult. If somebody got the message differently then I apologize.

I hope you understand that with the "ridiculous" and "lost faith" I had the intention of showing that the gendarme issue is sth I thought, is today not any more debatable for obvious reasons.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Gichtenlord »

swedenpaul wrote:I just took for granted that from 2lt and up, everybody knew the annoying gendarme spam.

It is only a problem for 2lt and below, because they dont know how to make a proper army composition + army positioning. These are things you can fix by improving
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _H2O »

The problem with nerfimg explorers is that you are making treaty easier. Should be avoided at all costs. IMO you nerf ports in other ways so that they need to use those explorers well or they are not gonna win.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

Gichtenlord wrote:[
It is only a problem for 2lt and below, because they dont know how to make a proper army composition + army positioning. These are things you can fix by improving


So you're target group for the patch is only the highest of the highest players?

@_H2O as there was often the idea of combining the patches, I have a question regarding the sup patch, isn't there port villager only 80 food?
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

@swedenpaul yup. Ports villager costs 80 food on Esoc sup patch.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

As janis are now faster to train, I think India should have a little faster infantry training time as well. Because in head to head fights on maps without inca, they're pretty hard to use.
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