Treaty Balance Changes Notes

[_NiceKING_]

As janis are now faster to train, I think India should have a little faster infantry training time as well. Because in head to head fights on maps without inca, they're pretty hard to use.

Indian infantries still train faster than janissary by 5%. On RE they train 15% faster than janissary.

[_PI]

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It is only a problem for 2lt and below, because they dont know how to make a proper army composition + army positioning. These are things you can fix by improving

So you're target group for the patch is only the highest of the highest players?

@_H2O

notification

as there was often the idea of combining the patches, I have a question regarding the sup patch, isn't there port villager only 80 food?

The simple answer to your question is: Yes, because balance matters most at the highest levels of play where skill should be relatively even between both players, so minor things like map imbalance, civ imbalance, etc have a significant impact on the outcome of the game. We cannot balance around lower level players, because often the solution at a lower level of play is "Play Better", and solving their problems by changing the game would make the balance significantly worse at the highest levels of play.

A good example of this would be making India train at the exact same rate as everyone else. My suggestion is get better at macromanagement, keep units in queue constantly, and never miss a production cycle. Sure, it's more difficult, but you're rewarded by playing better. At the highest levels, India's train rate disadvantage on infantry is a good offset to the speed at which they can forward base and the quality of all of their units (which is very high for their cost, they have some of the best infantry of any civilization).

Giving them equal train rates to a European civilization would make them able to forward base quickly, have equal production capacity to a European civilization, and equal-or-better core units. That alone would make them overpowered at the highest levels of play.

[_PI]

The problem with nerfimg explorers is that you are making treaty easier. Should be avoided at all costs. IMO you nerf ports in other ways so that they need to use those explorers well or they are not gonna win.

I don't really agree that we are making Treaty easier by nerfing explorers. We are making Portuguese less broken (3 explorer on RE is a big enough advantage to make Portuguese win almost all match-ups outside of Natives, and makes them even worse on other maps besides Andes) if used to their fullest extent. Portuguese are widely considered to be among the best "Tier 2" civilizations on RE because of the sheer flexibility they have, even without 3 Explorers. 3 Explorers took close match ups and made them unwinnable, though, because of the cost efficiency of 3 Explorers.

However, I agree that if we find reasons why 3 Explorers in its current form is too strong coupled with other factors that Portuguese have going for them, we could consider nerfing other aspects of the civilization (a good example might be further reducing mortar range to something like +6 instead of its current +8, or reducing the range advantage on Genitours by 2) that would help compensate.

Keep in mind we discuss all these types of changes pretty heavily and we don't like making changes we think will remove a unique aspect of a civilization (which is why we've reconsidered Gendarmes), initially we had outright removed 3 Explorers, but we decided it was better to include them in a state where they wouldn't tilt match ups as easily as they had in the past.

[swedenpaul]

A good example of this would be making India train at the exact same rate as everyone else. My suggestion is get better at macromanagement, keep units in queue constantly, and never miss a production cycle. Sure, it's more difficult, but you're rewarded by playing better. At the highest levels, India's train rate disadvantage on infantry is a good offset to the speed at which they can forward base and the quality of all of their units (which is very high for their cost, they have some of the best infantry of any civilization).

Giving them equal train rates to a European civilization would make them able to forward base quickly, have equal production capacity to a European civilization, and equal-or-better core units. That alone would make them overpowered at the highest levels of play.

I agree with you. I also think that India has very strong units and ofc the strongest units shouldn't have too short training times (just like the strongest units from other civs *gendarme* ^^). But India could, although this patch is focused on fast training maps, get much more popular if units, or at least sepoy for a flexible anticav, trained a little faster. I'm not speaking of the same train time as Europeans but maybe Sth like 5-10%.

That would allow India to be a more handy civ.

[_NiceKING_]

If give india faster inf training speed, then it would be unfair to leave ottos inf training speed the same cuz ottos inf speed is still slower than indian, even on the patch.

[swedenpaul]

As janis are now faster to train, I think India should have a little faster infantry training time as well. Because in head to head fights on maps without inca, they're pretty hard to use.

Indian infantries still train faster than janissary by 5%. On RE they train 15% faster than janissary.

As far as I calculated on RE janis train 20% slowers and on patch 10%.

[_NiceKING_]

As janis are now faster to train, I think India should have a little faster infantry training time as well. Because in head to head fights on maps without inca, they're pretty hard to use.

Indian infantries still train faster than janissary by 5%. On RE they train 15% faster than janissary.

As far as I calculated on RE janis train 20% slowers and on patch 10%.

India has fencing school that reduces infantry training speed by 40%. Otto has mosque improvement that reduces infantry training speed by 25%. So its 15% difference. Did I forgot to include something?

[swedenpaul]

My bad I thought it was 20% instead of 25%.

What about the consulate armies? I think it'd be great to have these faster with india.

[_NiceKING_]

My bad I thought it was 20% instead of 25%.

What about the consulate armies? I think it'd be great to have these faster with india.

Asian civs have a card "Good Faith Agreements" that makes consulate armies arrive 50% faster.

[Panmaster]

I thought I'd put together my own treaty balance mod with minimal changes. You guys should test it.
This is designed to improve balance without making changes that would annoy players of all skill levels on all map types and player counts.

1. Weaken thoroughbreds from 15% to 0% training time decrease.
2. Weaken Russian instant infantry training time card from roughly 75% to 90%.
3. Weaken Japan daimyo training card from 200% to 150%.
4. Explorer training from town center no longer instant. No more 3000HP tank spamming.

5. Upgrade German skirmisher card to combat card.
6. German infinite 1 heavy cannon card uhlan-free.
7. Fix German advanced dock.
8. Fix German church card from 10% to 15% in line with TAD upgrades.

[Gichtenlord]

I thought I'd put together my own treaty balance mod with minimal changes. You guys should test it.
This is designed to improve balance without making changes that would annoy players of all skill levels on all map types and player counts.

1. Weaken thoroughbreds from 15% to 0% training time decrease.
2. Weaken Russian instant infantry training time card from roughly 75% to 90%.
3. Weaken Japan daimyo training card from 200% to 150%.
ToDo. Weaken European explorer ransom ability from instantaneous to 20 seconds. Hardcoded in Age3y.exe?

5. Upgrade German skirmisher card to combat card.
6. German infinite 1 heavy cannon card uhlan-free.
7. Fix German advanced dock.

U rather promote in your own thread then

[_NiceKING_]

I thought I'd put together my own treaty balance mod with minimal changes. You guys should test it.
This is designed to improve balance without making changes that would annoy players of all skill levels on all map types and player counts.

1. Weaken thoroughbreds from 15% to 0% training time decrease.
2. Weaken Russian instant infantry training time card from roughly 75% to 90%.
3. Weaken Japan daimyo training card from 200% to 150%.
ToDo. Weaken European explorer ransom ability from instantaneous to 20 seconds. Hardcoded in Age3y.exe?

5. Upgrade German skirmisher card to combat card.
6. German infinite 1 heavy cannon card uhlan-free.
7. Fix German advanced dock.

These changes are not enough at all lol

[Panmaster]

These changes are not enough at all lol

I toned down the 3 OP civs and found a way around the hardcode to fix explorer spamming. Too many changes and you'll ruin it for people that like to use OP civs or like a particular unit. Alienating an already small community is not what AOE3 needs at a time when the RTS genre is being killed off.

[martinspjuth]

People can still play OP civ's on Re. Ofc you should not make more changes than needed. The number of changes required to make a balanced patch is however actually quite many since treaty was so heavily broken to begin with. I think Milky and everyone els on the treaty patch team have done an awsome job on this patch. It is well thought through and have had inputs from many of the best treaty players still playing. They have also listen to request and thoughts from the rest of the treaty community through this site and thread.

If there are to be a patch it should be a good truly balanced one. I honestly dont think many would care to change to your patch for the few changes you made. Most of all, there are certainly no need for more than one treaty patch. Nothing against you, but lets just believe in Milky and his team to get us a good balanced patch, and just play on Re if we want to lame OP civs.

[swedenpaul]

As seen on the stream, brit is probably the best tr civ in patch, I already suggested nerfing 2 rockets to only 1, which would maybe make it a possible to win matchup for civs without infinite artillery.

[_NiceKING_]

As seen on the stream Otto still needs to be buffed. Give them food silos!

[martinspjuth]

Ye,giving Otto food silos would probably be good. I also like the idea of reducing the pop of bombards to 6 or 7. And ofc instant abus is a bit strange, should be removed.

Maybe also increase the attack of bombards or give them something like 1.5 multiplier vs infantery?
Atm it feels like bombards are much weaker than hc's. I know their base attack and splash is bigger, but i'm not sure if that really compensates for their slower rate of fire and lack of multiplier vs inf. Just a thought.

[_PI]

Ye,giving Otto food silos would probably be good. I also like the idea of reducing the pop of bombards to 6 or 7. And ofc instant abus is a bit strange, should be removed.

Maybe also increase the attack of bombards or give them something like 1.5 multiplier vs infantery?
Atm it feels like bombards are much weaker than hc's. I know their base attack and splash is bigger, but i'm not sure if that really compensates for their slower rate of fire and lack of multiplier vs inf. Just a thought.

Instant Abus is a bug/oversight. I've already got a version with that fixed. We'll be discussing Ottomans post-tournament as a group, along with other civilizations that likely still need work to help them out in certain match-ups.

[_PI]

As seen on the stream, brit is probably the best tr civ in patch, I already suggested nerfing 2 rockets to only 1, which would maybe make it a possible to win matchup for civs without infinite artillery.

This is a good thought, but we also might want to look into nerfing their overpop at the start so that they don't have a strong first fight + strong economy + reasonably good military. I think the trade off for a strong economy should be having a weaker start, which doesn't really apply to British right now (but does for Germans). As I mentioned in my previous reply, we'll be discussing changes that we can make to balance things out once the tournament finishes.

[martinspjuth]

Some thoughts about Iro:

Replace the wood cost for Tomahawk and Kanya Horseman with a coin cost. Set the coin cost on Kanya Horseman to 50 (instead of 75).

Remove the card Siege Discipline and make Light Cannons cost 100 wood and 400 coin (from 100 wood and 300 coin).

Please keep Earth Mother Dance it is quite uniqe for iro and rewards good firepit micro.

Remove the 20 extra vills age up.

Reduce the boost the Native Warrior Combat card gives to 15%hp and 15%dgm (down from 25%hp and 25%dgm).

Give them Livestock Pens.

Change the infinite 1500 ress to only apply to gold/wood (intead for 500 of both food,wood and coin)

Reduce Forest Prowlers hp slightly.

Give Tomahawks slightly more hp. (Or, maybe let Tomahawks deal melee damage from range and give them 30%rr instead of 30% melee resistance?)

[_NiceKING_]

maybe let Tomahawks deal melee damage from range and give them 30%rr instead of 30% melee resistance?)

what? U wanna give musks ranged resistance? lol

[Gichtenlord]

maybe let Tomahawks deal melee damage from range and give them 30%rr instead of 30% melee resistance?)

what? U wanna give musks ranged resistance? lol

Would make iroqs completely dependend on nats, because else they would get rekt by any decent melee combo

[martinspjuth]

HAHAHA, you're probably right. Was just a thought. Leting them deal melee damage from range and have rr would make them last much longer when facing a skirm, cav combo. Since they deal the melee damage with bonus vs cav already from range. But anyway, that was just a side note. I hope you could consider the rest of my ideas even if you think that one was completely rubbish (wich it maybe was ).

[swedenpaul]

Some thoughts about Iro:

Change the infinite 1500 ress to only apply to gold/wood (intead for 500 of both food,wood and coin)

Reduce Forest Prowlers hp slightly.

So you're saying 1500 wood and 1500 gold?
Or 750 wood/ 750 gold?
Or 500 Wood/ 500 Gold?


Also I really like the forest prowlers, the way they are now. Why do you suggest needing them?:)

[martinspjuth]

So you're saying 1500 wood and 1500 gold?
Or 750 wood/ 750 gold?
Or 500 Wood/ 500 Gold?

I'm saying 750 wood and 750 coin (or possibly 1500 wood or 1500 coin)

Also I really like the forest prowlers, the way they are now. Why do you suggest needing them?:)

Forest Prowlers are one of the strongest skirms in the game. They have decent amount of hp, decent attack (that become quite high with wardance) and they got 2 more range than almost any other skirm.
Iro is very strong vs infantery, but has a hard time vs cavalry. So i thought nerfing Forest Prowlers slightly (together with nerfing Light Cannons) would make them less OP vs infantery, and making Tomahawks stronger would make them able to deal with cav in a better way.