Treaty Balance Changes Notes

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Bavaria swedenpaul
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

Japan can spam damyos on andes, should be fixed. Also Naginata are still spamable from the damyo even if the card is upgrade is done that slows down damyo production.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Please balance Dutch. You tried to balance the civs so hard, so you even overbalanced them and made Dutch a new OP civ.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by zoom »

The effect of Jerom Dutch balance whine and Goodspeed knows no bounds!
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by paddy_jai »

For China
The steppe rider and ckn combo is not too bad. steppe rider cost 85 coin and do 60 dmg against skirm, archer type units which is decent for their cost.
About the wonder giving villi, how about make it a rss delivering wonder instead of giving villi. if they give noth then what is the point build it. (the healing ability is not so bad tho)
For Japan.
i think japan is buffed in this patch. Because of the daymyo speed up card. they give 30% faster production to barracks and stable. which make nagi and yamabushi produced instantly
apart from that, japan is not that weak against cannons. japan is afraid of horse artilary, hcs etc. but culvs are not a threat to japan because they do less dmg. To deal with inf killing cannons, japan have the option to make yamabushi, which is quite good. they have very high multiplier vs cannons and have 50% ranged rss. they wont die easily. if flaming arrows are buffed with 32 range, japan will have too many options to counter cannons, flming arrow, yamabushi, nagi etc. Actually i dont think it's essential to make win the culv war for japan, since japan can kill horse artilary, hc, etc, without winning the culvs war.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

paddy_jai wrote:For China
The steppe rider and ckn combo is not too bad. steppe rider cost 85 coin and do 60 dmg against light inf

Light infantry is infantry that acts as cavalry (CoyoteRunner, RattanShield, Disciple), stepee rider does not have bonus vs them :P
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by paddy_jai »

_NiceKING_ wrote:
paddy_jai wrote:For China
The steppe rider and ckn combo is not too bad. steppe rider cost 85 coin and do 60 dmg against light inf

Light infantry is infantry that acts as cavalry (CoyoteRunner, RattanShield, Disciple), stepee rider does not have bonus vs them :P


Oh sorry i made a mistake.
I mean skirm and archer type unit. not saying coyote etc. XD
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

paddy_jai wrote:
_NiceKING_ wrote:
paddy_jai wrote:For China
The steppe rider and ckn combo is not too bad. steppe rider cost 85 coin and do 60 dmg against light inf

Light infantry is infantry that acts as cavalry (CoyoteRunner, RattanShield, Disciple), stepee rider does not have bonus vs them :P


Oh sorry i made a mistake.
I mean skirm and archer type unit. not saying coyote etc. XD

Ye I got it :)
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

@paddy_jai absolutely, Japan is so much stronger now, they can even build native embassies...
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Lukas_L99 »

paddy_jai wrote:For Japan.
i think japan is buffed in this patch. Because of the daymyo speed up card. they give 30% faster production to barracks and stable. which make nagi and yamabushi produced instantly
apart from that, japan is not that weak against cannons. japan is afraid of horse artilary, hcs etc. but culvs are not a threat to japan because they do less dmg. To deal with inf killing cannons, japan have the option to make yamabushi, which is quite good. they have very high multiplier vs cannons and have 50% ranged rss. they wont die easily. if flaming arrows are buffed with 32 range, japan will have too many options to counter cannons, flming arrow, yamabushi, nagi etc. Actually i dont think it's essential to make win the culv war for japan, since japan can kill horse artilary, hc, etc, without winning the culvs war.


I think you mean Yabusame and not Yamabushi (Yamabushi are the melee units with a club).

Also Yabusame aren't that useful for killing artillery because they only have 18 range, means any decent player will pull back their cannons when they see Yabusame and those will just run into skirm/musk fire and die without killing enough to justify their high cost. Obviously culvs aren't a threat to infantry, but they are to flaming arrows which are used to kill horse artillery.

And actually the aim was to make Japan train more from buildings than daymios/shogun so they aren't as mobile as they used to be, but in this version training times of barracks/stables and daymios are identical which should/will be fixed.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Lukas_L99 wrote:And actually the aim was to make Japan train more from buildings than daymios/shogun so they aren't as mobile as they used to be, but in this version training times of barracks/stables and daymios are identical which should/will be fixed.

No. Barracks/stables/castles train units/artillery 30% faster than Daimyo and Shogun Tokugawa do.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

@_NiceKING_ still damyos and nagi from damyos are spammable on Inca maps, even with the 30% slower train time upgrade.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Idk if training daymios/shogun from the wonder is that much of a problem to be honest, but obviously nagis shouldn't be instant from daymios.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Yeah I agree that instant nagis from Daymio is OP. Need more testing with decreasing the training times. _PI and milky disappeared, no one is working on the patch atm.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

Lukas_L99 wrote:Idk if training daymios/shogun from the wonder is that much of a problem to be honest, but obviously nagis shouldn't be instant from daymios.


I think naginata spam should under no circumstances be possible from the damyo.

Hm, I played against a Japan player on patch, and I think damyo should still have a long train time as on RE. Monks for Spain aren't trained that fast either for example and damyos can even train units so ... Shouldn't be possible.

Now, its not even worth killing the damyo, as you already know it's gonna be back in seconds.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _PI »

_NiceKING_ wrote:Yeah I agree that instant nagis from Daymio is OP. Need more testing with decreasing the training times. _PI and milky disappeared, no one is working on the patch atm.


Work has gotten the better of me the last few weeks. I'm still around, just haven't had much time. Some of my thoughts are below.

Japan:
Ideally, we would just remove the ability to train any units from Daimyo and force them onto using Rax/Stable/Castles, with Daimyo/Shogun being for their aura effect. But, this removes a huge unique aspect of the civilization. Severely crippling the train rate seems like a good compromise, since they could still move around but I think it would equate the exact same as just removing the ability to train units from them.

Flaming Arrow need to be decent vs culvs at a high level for all the reasons Lukas out-lined. Yabusame are not a viable counter due to their range.

Dutch:
I think we went overboard in giving them more vills + a better boom at the same time. Below are the changes I intend to implement this weekend for us to test out:

Bank of Amsterdam: Card moved back to Age 1.
Coffee Trade (from Religious Freedom): No longer grants 10% additional gather rate to banks.
Tulip Speculation: Effect reduced to 15% (essentially, revert changes).
Each of the 4 Plantation/Coin cards: Now also grants 5% additional gather rate to banks.

The reasoning behind this is that it would result in their score at 40 being reduced by a decent amount, but also once all of their eco cards are out they would have a higher income rate than they currently do. Since they have one additional card in their build order right now, you would still net out to 5% more than the RE patch bank rates because you could send Royal Mint in place of Bank of Rotterdam. If you wanted to boost their score at 40, you would be forced to sacrifice military cards (fast train, etc) to send additional coin cards, which would naturally offset the additional economy gained.

Another option floated was just removing the Colbertism food trickle, which would remove ~50 points from the boom. However, we also seemed to agree that the changes above fulfill a similar end result and decided it would be worth testing them. I do not want to go the route that the ESOC Patch did with banks, as it would balloon Dutch's late game income far too much (+40% to bank rates with the same number of banks would easily make them get 2300).
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by martinspjuth »

_PI wrote:Japan:
Ideally, we would just remove the ability to train any units from Daimyo and force them onto using Rax/Stable/Castles, with Daimyo/Shogun being for their aura effect. But, this removes a huge unique aspect of the civilization. Severely crippling the train rate seems like a good compromise, since they could still move around but I think it would equate the exact same as just removing the ability to train units from them.

Would it not just be enough to simply keep most units training from daimo at the rate they currently are, but make cav train ALOT slower from daimo with Bukufu card? Would fix the instant nagata problem. I also agree with that daimo shouldn't be able to be trained so fast. It should still be a decently heavy blow to the japanese player if he loses his daimo/shougun. Now he can just get them back almost instantly and therefor doesnt have to play without their aura for long.

Flaming Arrow need to be decent vs culvs at a high level for all the reasons Lukas out-lined. Yabusame are not a viable counter due to their range.

I think you might have buffed Flaming Arrows a bit much. Individually culvs are better than Flaming Arrows as anti artillery artillery, but not by much. Flaming Arrows have now only 2 less range than culvs and they do 21 more damage to other artillery than culvs. Flaming Arrows also have 1 more area damage than culvs, so they are more likely to kill more of the enemy art with splash damage. Flaming Arrows are also alot cheaper. And they are not even a pure anti artillery unit, but they do also pretty good vs infantery, so they can be massed in a much higher scale. Even with 2 more range, it is now quite hard to win the art battle vs Japan for almost any civ since your culvs are almost always out numbered. That together with 120 military pop, very strong inf, nagatas and long range morts makes Japan quite strong atm (too strong?). Japan are too weak to art on RE, but that doesnt mean you should remove that weakness almost completely.

Dutch:
I think we went overboard in giving them more vills + a better boom at the same time. Below are the changes I intend to implement this weekend for us to test out:

Bank of Amsterdam: Card moved back to Age 1.
Coffee Trade (from Religious Freedom): No longer grants 10% additional gather rate to banks.
Tulip Speculation: Effect reduced to 15% (essentially, revert changes).
Each of the 4 Plantation/Coin cards: Now also grants 5% additional gather rate to banks.

The reasoning behind this is that it would result in their score at 40 being reduced by a decent amount, but also once all of their eco cards are out they would have a higher income rate than they currently do. Since they have one additional card in their build order right now, you would still net out to 5% more than the RE patch bank rates because you could send Royal Mint in place of Bank of Rotterdam. If you wanted to boost their score at 40, you would be forced to sacrifice military cards (fast train, etc) to send additional coin cards, which would naturally offset the additional economy gained.

Another option floated was just removing the Colbertism food trickle, which would remove ~50 points from the boom. However, we also seemed to agree that the changes above fulfill a similar end result and decided it would be worth testing them. I do not want to go the route that the ESOC Patch did with banks, as it would balloon Dutch's late game income far too much (+40% to bank rates with the same number of banks would easily make them get 2300).

I agree you buffed dutch a bit much. But imo it was just slightly too much, for the most part, i think you did good with dutch. That's why i'd much rather prefer to make the nerf with removing Colbertism food trickle, rather than changing so many other things. I can see why you would like to nerf their boom a little, but i can not see why you would also want to buff their late game economy. Of what i've seen of Dutch on patch, they are really fine, with just a slightly overpowered boom. Also, if it's only the boom you want to nerf, you could simply nerf their age up politicians (removing aging with 400 wood, or the 1000 coin age up for example)
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

martinspjuth wrote:
_PI wrote:Japan:
Ideally, we would just remove the ability to train any units from Daimyo and force them onto using Rax/Stable/Castles, with Daimyo/Shogun being for their aura effect. But, this removes a huge unique aspect of the civilization. Severely crippling the train rate seems like a good compromise, since they could still move around but I think it would equate the exact same as just removing the ability to train units from them.

Would it not just be enough to simply keep most units training from daimo at the rate they currently are, but make cav train ALOT slower from daimo with Bukufu card?

No, you cannot make one unit train slower than others from Daimyo without affecting stables or barracks afaik. You either increase all units training time from Daimyo and Tokugawa or increase training time of nagis from both Daimyo and stables.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by martinspjuth »

_NiceKING_ wrote:
martinspjuth wrote:
_PI wrote:Japan:
Ideally, we would just remove the ability to train any units from Daimyo and force them onto using Rax/Stable/Castles, with Daimyo/Shogun being for their aura effect. But, this removes a huge unique aspect of the civilization. Severely crippling the train rate seems like a good compromise, since they could still move around but I think it would equate the exact same as just removing the ability to train units from them.

Would it not just be enough to simply keep most units training from daimo at the rate they currently are, but make cav train ALOT slower from daimo with Bukufu card?

No, you cannot make one unit train slower than others from Daimyo without affecting stables afaik. You either increase all units training time from Daimyo and Tokugawa or increase training time of nagis from both Daimyo and stables.


Okay, didn't know that, thanks for correcting me. Then I guess they should just make all units train slower from Daimyo/Shougun, cos instant nagats from Daimyo is a bit too OP and needs to be fixed somehow.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by charlemagen »

The new Update should be available within the next day or so.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by swedenpaul »

_PI wrote:
Japan:
Ideally, we would just remove the ability to train any units from Daimyo and force them onto using Rax/Stable/Castles, with Daimyo/Shogun being for their aura effect. But, this removes a huge unique aspect of the civilization. Severely crippling the train rate seems like a good compromise, since they could still move around but I think it would equate the exact same as just removing the ability to train units from them.


I also think their ability to train units shouldn't be removed totally as it is, as you said, a very unique quality. but making the train time for units longer is a good compromise, so damyos aren't any more the main frontbase-like-thing but just an addictional possibility to produce some units.

_PI wrote:Flaming Arrow need to be decent vs culvs at a high level for all the reasons Lukas out-lined. Yabusame are not a viable counter due to their range.


It is a good thing to buff fl. Arrows a bit, so that Japan can catch up in art war with euro civilizations, but as someone already mentioned, it is kinda unfair that they get the higher splash damage against culvs and deal that much damage while beeing trained a lot easier in mass and also faster. My suggestions would be either giving them longer train times or removing the artillery training from the shogun. So players would need to rely on hill castles (or whatever they're called, I mean the towers)

[quote="_Pi]
Dutch
[/quote]

Dutch has become a great civ, as someone mentioned already, they're pretty much perfectly balanced. Maybe you're right that the Eco should however be nerfed again a slightly bit. And I really like the idea of nerfing the Eco at min. 40 but still boosting it overall in the long term way. That used to be dutchs biggest weakness I think, that over time their Eco was absolutely not competible.

I look forward to the next version :)
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Lukas_L99 »

Yeah I agree that flaming arrows are a bit too good, maybe decrease their bonus against artillery from 2.3 (or 2.25?) in imperial to only 2.

I also agree that the daymio/shogun training times from the shogunate should be much slower (instead of being instant now), so that killing them is actually a useful achievement and the Japanese player has to protect them much better.

swedenpaul wrote:My suggestions would be either giving them longer train times or removing the artillery training from the shogun. So players would need to rely on hill castles (or whatever they're called, I mean the towers)


Well the artillery training times of the shogun are really really slow now, that having a castle nearby your barracks/stables it necessary.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by Her0 »

If I built rockets in my factories can I still get more than 6 rockets or am I forced to stay with that now that there is the limit for the cards?
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

Her0 wrote:If I built rockets in my factories can I still get more than 6 rockets?

Nope. You cannnot get more than 6 rockets even from the factories.
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by iNcog »

What happens when a player has 6 rockets and rockets get shipped from the HC?
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Re: Treaty Balance Changes Notes

Post by _NiceKING_ »

iNcog wrote:What happens when a player has 6 rockets and rockets get shipped from the HC?

You are not able to send "Rockets" card if you have 5 or 6 rockets already.
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