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Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 19:37
by momuuu
It's lame in the actual sense of the word lame rather than the gaming sense of the word. But ruyters are also just shittier than goons.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 20:12
by Mimsy for President
Not enough to judge them. Cossacks are shittier than hussars as well (stats-wise) but...

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 21:18
by zoom
Jerom wrote:It's lame in the actual sense of the word lame rather than the gaming sense of the word. But ruyters are also just shittier than goons.

I'm not at all sure of this.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 21:37
by momuuu
zoom wrote:
Jerom wrote:It's lame in the actual sense of the word lame rather than the gaming sense of the word. But ruyters are also just shittier than goons.

I'm not at all sure of this.

unit, attack per cost, hitpoints per cost, ranged hitpoints per cost
goon, 0.101111, 0.933333, 1.33333
ruyter, 0.0995556, 1.04533, 1.16148

Not taking into account the fact that weaker units suffer more from loss in attack power (my rough calculations seem to imply that 20% less hp means you get 10% less dps on a unit, so the effective goon attack might be even higher), although overkill is a thing. Also not taking into account that ruyters just clog up your stable which is incredibly annoying.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 21:43
by KINGofOsmane
dont discuss with garja hes top 3...

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 21:45
by benj89
tbh overkill is not just a thing, it's huge especially when you consider that most players micro with x and target no more than 3-4 ruyts while shooting with 40lb

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 22:11
by momuuu
benj89 wrote:tbh overkill is not just a thing, it's huge especially when you consider that most players micro with x and target no more than 3-4 ruyts while shooting with 40lb

The attack loss is probably larger tbh. That effect is actually huge in this case. It means ruyters have like 20% less attack than they seem to have.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 22:55
by cedarfarms
I just dont understand why everyone flames garja, and i find it pretty funny that most the people who start the flaming like on this thread, are the same people who reap the benefits of all the maps garja made. The maps he made on his own time, solely just to improve everyone in the communitys aoe experience.
And even worse, flaming him because he says schooners is viable on great lakes lol, thats a pretty safe statement to make. Great lakes might not have whales, but there are always a very heavy amount of fish. I just checked in a 1v1 game, and there are 10 little groupings of fish, each with 3 gather points. Thats 15,000 food. How is that not worth it? Thats not 5 boats, 15000 food can keep 30 boats busy for sometime. Fishing ships base rate is .67 food per second. Thats roughly 22,000 villager seconds i believe, thats not worth it at all.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 23:11
by gibson
cedarfarms wrote:I just dont understand why everyone flames garja, and i find it pretty funny that most the people who start the flaming like on this thread, are the same people who reap the benefits of all the maps garja made. The maps he made on his own time, solely just to improve everyone in the communitys aoe experience.
And even worse, flaming him because he says schooners is viable on great lakes lol, thats a pretty safe statement to make. Great lakes might not have whales, but there are always a very heavy amount of fish. I just checked in a 1v1 game, and there are 10 little groupings of fish, each with 3 gather points. Thats 15,000 food. How is that not worth it? Thats not 5 boats, 15000 food can keep 30 boats busy for sometime. Fishing ships base rate is .67 food per second. Thats roughly 22,000 villager seconds i believe, thats not worth it at all.

Straight up now tell me are you really gonna love me forever or are you just havin fun!?!?

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 06 Apr 2016, 23:13
by cedarfarms
this is no hit and run gibz

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 07 Apr 2016, 14:14
by pecelot
Sure, but can Garja say anything and be perfectly fine because he made maps? Of course I'm against flaming anyone, but I don't think that things work this way...

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 07 Apr 2016, 15:21
by tilanus
iNcog wrote:
Jerom wrote:
tilanus wrote:Ruyters work pretty well from a technical point of view if you know how not to overkill and micro with them. A 1pop dragoon with worse stats is a nice idea, but apart from that Ruyters are just stupid units, just like there are many stupid units in AoE3. Their plain name translates to "Rider" and it's a reference to the actually German historical "Reiters", which were so successful they became the role model cavalrymen of the 17th century. Their royal guard upgrade "Carabineers" refers to the elite Karabiniers. Are the shitty Ruyter stats appropriate to display that? I don't think so.

This unit is so unrelated to Dutch history because ES with their type case design only wanted to force that fancy unit idea of a 1pop cavalryman. In the next version of NE Dutchies will eventually get Dragoons. (RIP Ruyter) :ugeek:

Ruyter might not refer to german reiters though in the sense that ruyter is dutch for rider aswell. But yeah, gamedesign matters more in the end I guess. Itd have been better the other way around. For dutch's special unit to be a weaker but cheaper thing is kinda lame.


<_< u mad cuz u dutch

Nah, mad cuz I care bout semantics and narration. I'm german btw.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 07 Apr 2016, 15:39
by iNcog
I was talking to Jerom, also it was a joke.

I agree with the general gist of your post, otherwise.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 07 Apr 2016, 15:47
by Mimsy for President
tilanus wrote:
iNcog wrote:
Show hidden quotes


<_< u mad cuz u dutch

Nah, mad cuz I care bout semantics and narration. I'm german btw.
Calm down Jürgen, it was intended for Jerom.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 03:47
by Jotunir
Are they lame though?

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 03:56
by Rohbrot
Jotunir wrote:Are they lame though?
5 years bump, like it.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:19
by Jotunir
I still think that ryuters are actually better than Dragoons, Poita made a good argument about that in aoe3 heaven:

"I've been hearing a lot lately that Ruyters are nothing compared to Dragoons (I've even heard that they are the worst unit in the game!) so I'm just going to present a few facts in the form of a comparison to dragoons.

Dragoons = 90f + 90g (180 res)
Ruyters = 30f + 75g (105 res) (I know what you're thinking but I'll get to this later)

Cost ratio = 1.71

HP/cost (=Melee HP/cost)
Dragoons = 1.11
Ruyters = 1.33 (20% more)

Ranged HP/cost
Dragoons = 1.59 (7% more)
Ruyters = 1.48

Ranged damage/cost
Dragoons = 0.122
Ruyters = 0.133 (9% more)

Melee damage/cost
Dragoons = 0.0611
Ruyters = 0.0667 (9% more)

Dragoons and ruyters both fire one shot every 3 seconds, travel the same speed, same attack bonuses, same range and are countered by the same units. Dragoons have 1 more line of sight but take up double population space and take 7 more seconds to build.

These are the facts in summary:
Ruyters do 9% more damage (both ranged and melee)
Ruyters last 20% longer in melee
Ruyters take up half the population space
Dragoons last 7% longer at range
Dragoons have 1 more line of sight (15 compared to 14)

I think the 9% damage at least cancels out the 7% less ranged HP if not increases on it. Ruyters obviously win on a population basis and I don't think anyone would really care about 1 more line of sight for dragoons.

Now I'm sure you're all saying "But ruyters cost more than dragoons because they cost more gold". Remember now that gold gathers 15% faster for Dutch and that's not to mention that gold is a very easy resource for the Dutch to collect due to banks. Your dragoons using civs will have to be concentrating on map control or resorting to plantations to continue dragoon production.

Interpret this information as you will, but I think it's time to stop neglecting Ruyters as an effective unit since they are at least as good as Dragoons if not better. There is plenty of room for debate on the 'gold factor' of Ruyters so it's difficult to come up with an accurate comparison."

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:25
by Hazza54321
Lol this thread

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:42
by Jotunir
I prefer to use black riders though, those mercs are beasts. :devil:

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:48
by gamevideo113
ruyters are fine, goons are fine
/thread ez

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 14:51
by Rohbrot
Hazza54321 wrote:Lol this thread
The creator of the thread says this ;)

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 15:37
by chronique
pls nerf ruyters, too strong vs falc

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 13 Jan 2021, 18:03
by Jotunir
chronique wrote:pls nerf ruyters, too strong vs falc
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 16 Jan 2021, 16:42
by Jets
Well, considering how monstrously fast dutch can get their coin, ruyters are so cheap and easy to spam, you all have played against a 25 ruyters running around, increasing in mass every minute. Just make them cost 2pop, by the time dutch is age3 and massing cav, they can pretty easily buy wood at the market, balancing the issues mentioned before too.

Re: ruyters are lame

Posted: 16 Jan 2021, 17:21
by Jotunir
Jets wrote:Well, considering how monstrously fast dutch can get their coin, ruyters are so cheap and easy to spam, you all have played against a 25 ruyters running around, increasing in mass every minute. Just make them cost 2pop, by the time dutch is age3 and massing cav, they can pretty easily buy wood at the market, balancing the issues mentioned before too.
The only good thing about Ruyters besides the cost is that they only occupy 1 pop space each, removing that advantage would make them almost useless.