Treaty Player Tier List

[_H2O]

Well it's good you cleared that your post is related to treaty 40 and not treaty overall, but coming back to nr20, prime of nr20 ended in 2011-2012 long before you reached your prime . . .

off the top my head i can think of tamasi and tomo_tanker as good 20 players back then, as well as masterchif (who is still active today and very clearly a top 20 player as well as colonel+ in supremacy and PR28+ in nr40). unfortunately ELO is down at the moment so i can't dig for more big names in the prime 20 scene.

but we have very few resources by which to judge the 20 players who were active back then. no youtube videos, no twitch streams, and very seldom a record game pops up. we can't see an individual's mouse control or his control group setup or his hotkey usage. we have a limited first-perspecive view with record games but it's not enough to accurately judge the full skill of a player. it's a shame it is this way, which is why more should be done to preserve aoe3s current history.

black_prince101
dark_prince
gudde900/_hadrianus_
I dont know the real acc but knight_br
musketjr
yanchan
ekinchin or something
tomo was nino/kingreglin iirc
etc

I am not saying dick is bad nr20 player or something, but these guys played at the prime of nr20 and were top at that time, dick rarely played vs these guys or didnt even play vs most of them iirc. Dick is probably top but in era when this game mode is dead and these were top at the prime time, it's not possible to make an comparison between 2 players as they are from different era and dont even play now but logic says its not fair to call dick top nr20 player lol

Unlike supremacy I would say the treaty guys got better over the past 8 years. They were so far behind on things like culv micro and just understanding the game in general. Comparing 2008-2010 treaty to now I feel it would be much harder to beat the top guys. There just are not simple tricks I can use to get advantages anymore (people weren't even making the right units).

The different Era arguemwnt is a cop out in this case.

Also serious question for people. Why did all the sup guys go play the least competitive version of treaty? NR 55 Orinoco :S. I had no idea that veni played it so much as well.

[Cometk]

black_prince101
dark_prince
gudde900/_hadrianus_
I dont know the real acc but knight_br
musketjr
yanchan
ekinchin or something
tomo was nino/kingreglin iirc
etc

black_prince101, dark__prince, and gudde were all good. kingreglin was good but also a dropcheater so who knows how high you could reliably place him. the current owner of that knight_br played some 20, mained brits and was pretty good but knight_br probably refers to fuher who i don't remember so much for 20 but know was close to top in 40. yanchan was like pr28-pr29, again a decent player. looking at elo ekinchin seems like a pr25-pr26. you mention musketjr but he's a solid 2014 player and makes me doubt your entire knowledge of early tr20 history. he's definitely in this era. lol?

i don't see what seperates your 2011-2012 list much from the tr20 scene in 2014. i think you're just a contrarian.

Also serious question for people. Why did all the sup guys go play the least competitive version of treaty? NR 55 Orinoco :S. I had no idea that veni played it so much as well.

dw, it was only veni and heroes_ who went to orinoco.

[hunter]

black_prince101
dark_prince
gudde900/_hadrianus_
I dont know the real acc but knight_br
musketjr
yanchan
ekinchin or something
tomo was nino/kingreglin iirc
etc

black_prince101, dark__prince, and gudde were all good. kingreglin was good but also a dropcheater so who knows how high you could reliably place him. the current owner of that knight_br played some 20, mained brits and was pretty good but knight_br probably refers to fuher who i don't remember so much for 20 but know was close to top in 40. yanchan was like pr28-pr29, again a decent player. looking at elo ekinchin seems like a pr25-pr26. you mention musketjr but he's a solid 2014 player and makes me doubt your entire knowledge of early tr20 history. he's definitely in this era. lol?

i don't see what seperates your 2011-2012 list much from the tr20 scene in 2014. i think you're just a contrarian.

Also serious question for people. Why did all the sup guys go play the least competitive version of treaty? NR 55 Orinoco :S. I had no idea that veni played it so much as well.

dw, it was only veni and heroes_ who went to orinoco.

Well the list was about players who would be better or equal than dick so i don't see why musket shouldnt be added to that list apart from musket all other splayed in 2011-12-13 and kinda stopped later lol so obviously it differes from 2014-16 list

[Gichtenlord]

Also serious question for people. Why did all the sup guys go play the least competitive version of treaty? NR 55 Orinoco :S. I had no idea that veni played it so much as well.

Veni has a grudge on andes, because, in his opinion, inca tech is complete bullshit

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

INTERESTING

Well, im not on the same level as i was back then, but yes I played mostly nr55, but also nr40 (ori/deccan). When i was playing TR actively, I won vs Sid guy, Gichtenlord, Sabusa (although quite close) and Dicktator once (quite close as well, and i believe he got better now). Kingownage and Laroda (from longer ago) were in fact the only guys to win vs me back then. Unfortunately never played black_thought i think.

While nr55 is a lot of micro in one place, and the right timing for specific new units, I do agree that nr55 does require less skill than nr40 overall. Canon (mostly culv) micro was for many players not as good as it seems today. The reason why i did 55 ori is just because those were a bit more relax, and later on had the better games at that moment unless i found some good ones for nr40 ori/deccan. Andes i simply dont like that much, true. I have said this before, the fact that you can make any unit (cav, dop, etc) instantly, removes a lot of the strategical/anticipation part for me, which i dislike.

About being able to deal with side attacks or fighting 2 locations. Well, probably most nr55 players cant, true. However I had to do the same in nr40, and i think my sup games have shown that my apm was fine as well as the ability to fight in more than 1 location. Besides, it seems that most of the andes games that ive seen and played are fought out in 1 location mostly, sometimes a side attack but then usually back to h2h.

[_H2O]

Treaty probably would be way better without instant units agree completely. That was a legit post all around.

[momuuu]

With slower training times such a gametype can become infuriating. I know from playing FFAs as china without training speed cards lol. If you lose the battle slightly you'll not be able to get back because half of your army is being trained. I think at some point of training speeds and eco you want fewer vills. Maybe best would be 200 mil pop at some point.

[_H2O]

Fast but not instant.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

Jerom, you sound like you talk about slow training...
As H2O said, fast but not instant. Of course you have to be able to remass quickly, which you can do on deccan and orinoco for example. You still have the cards and church upgrades. However, the andes tp upgrade makes it instant and as explained in my 2nd paragraph above, THAT is an issue. At least for me and some others.

[Lukas_L99]

The incan upgrade only makes European cav instant and the biggest advantage it has is making civs like India and all TWC civs viable, which are really really bad on other maps besides andes

[momuuu]

Jerom, you sounds like you talk about slow training...
As H2O said, fast but not instant. Of course you have to be able to remass quickly, which you can do on deccan and orinoco for example. You still have the cards and church upgrades. However, the andes tp upgrade makes it instant and as explained in my 2nd paragraph above, THAT is an issue. At least for me and some others.

Yeah I was just throwing some generic but imo interesting thoughts out there. The one problem with the non andes maps is that non euro civs (and otto I guess) aren't really viable anymore. With the treaty fp that seems very solvable to me though.

[Veni_Vidi_Vici_W]

Lukas, it also makes for example dops train too fast imo, for their cost/stat. I understand the issue with some slower training civs, but that should be fixed in other ways imo.

[hunter]

Jerom, you sounds like you talk about slow training...
As H2O said, fast but not instant. Of course you have to be able to remass quickly, which you can do on deccan and orinoco for example. You still have the cards and church upgrades. However, the andes tp upgrade makes it instant and as explained in my 2nd paragraph above, THAT is an issue. At least for me and some others.

Yeah I was just throwing some generic but imo interesting thoughts out there. The one problem with the non andes maps is that non euro civs (and otto I guess) aren't really viable anymore. With the treaty fp that seems very solvable to me though.

It isn't that civ are viable are not the issue is map, on map like gp even without faster training civ like india and otto might be viable but on deccan when port can just mort the whole map you can't really do anything lol

[musketjr]

Interesting point about training speeds. First worthwhile reason to play inca I've seen.

The three firepit civs can use that to train units.

India has fencing school and an equivalent to riding school where elephants train faster (no one makes camels in treaty)

China is the only civ I've never used in treaty so no comment.

As for jp no one uses it in tr 40 anyway so as I see it the only reason to play andes has been refuted.

[momuuu]

Wait, does india have fencing school? I thought they only had riding school? They surely have riding school. Still no church techs though. As for native civs having the dance: they also need to be able to put that dance on attack dance or other dances to even be remotely competitive. Having to have 25 villagers on a firepit in order to achieve similair training speeds achieved by 2 cards is terrible for those civs, which arent great to begin with. Theres also ottos that dont have all the necessary training cards I believe. So it applies to 7 civs, although China and Japan used to be considered OP and Japan is possibly also playable off andes.

With treaty patch they can just fix it and maybe make units be produced slightly slower. Small mistakes cant really get punished when units train almost instantly. Takes away a bit from the game I think.

[gibson]

India has riding school and fencing school

[musketjr]

Not quite Jerom.

Aztec don't use vills. Just wp. It does mean foregoing attack dance but you can't have your cake and eat it too. Civ has one firepit not two so if you want to spam quickly put it on training speed dance. And they have fencing school.

Iro can over pop vills by 10 or 20. You can use 10 vills for training dance. Stuff trains quickly enough from playing them in tr.

As mentioned India actually has riding school and the elephant training card. And they have a mosque tech which boosts elephant train speed iirc.

Japan goes dutch in treaty Bo anyway so they do have a church. Also batches of 10.

And sioux has riding school. You'd also want 10 on FP. But it's another civ used in zero treaty games so moot point.

[HeatitUP_]

For a few players they sure cause a lot of estrogen filled episodes throughout the AOE3 community lol

[hunter]

Gurkha train quite fast iirc sepoy are slow like jans elephants train like cav np, japan has daimyo and church tech so they pretty fast + nagi from shipment which comes in 20 seconds to fill in pop , china is ok consulate army arrives in 1 sec to fill in pop if neccesary, aztec can either have op army or fast speed depends on how good apm and firepit macro you have, same goes for iro, the problem is treaty is either considered andes deccan or orinoco and except andes on other maps you can just mort far away fb's and lack of siege potential for these civs make them not so viable, but on open maps like gp or other these civs might be actually decent, but for some wierd reason running which is core strategic part of game is considered lame in treaty

[_NiceKING_]

Aztec don't use vills. Just wp.

not quite true. For maximum effect, you have 10 wps and 15 vills on the firepit.

[charlemagen]

All these comments now belong in their own thread

[momuuu]

For all I know, India definitely isnt playable off andes. They dont have cav training at 10% of the original speed. You're listing cards but forgetting about the huge church upgrades.

Native civs already suck, you cant argue that it does their playability any good to not have faster training either. Only japan gets somewhat acceptable figures through daimyos with 10 batches, but its still not great at all.

[hunter]

india gets elephants fast as they got elephant card and monastry tech. sioux sucks because it can't wall aztecs because no decent siege unit prolly iro are ok maybe bad on no wood map like I said they tested india only on deccan which map design wise is bad for india lol

[pecelot]

Iro can over pop vills by 10 or 20.

You can have 119 vills as Iro, just a side note :)
Also theoretically you can operate your firepit so that during the fight you have the attack dance, then you switch to the Earth Mother dance, queue units and switch to the fertility dance.

[InsectPoison]

Gonna do a list for the whole time period.

Tier 1 :
Dicktator_
Storm_999_
Lukas_l99
King_ownadge2nd
Sabusa

Tier 2:
Gichtenlord
Foire421 (very underrated player imo)
Stormcoming (Soulsong)
Sid18
Ajiv
Bager
Charlemagen
Milky_
Chrissl
Donorprince (nino)

Tier 3:
Death12345
Black_thought
Asmthom39
Pizzafreak
Tom_gr
Magnam

No flame pls