[misleading]ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

France iNcog
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[misleading]ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

I was browsing ESOC as usual (gotta keep up to speed) and noticed this post regarding a potential anti-cheating countermeasure:

Buckethead wrote:Send me a private message who want to join the team that will manage the cheater blacklist.
Im finishing a tool that will block players who are on that list on QS and Lobby.


I saw this post and I cannot say that I am fan of this, for a few reasons. I am assuming that this is directly related to the EP and would become a part of the EP "package". If this assumption is wrong and this is a third-party tool then my concerns are somewhat alleviated but I think this still deserves discussion.

I'm pretty sure that ESOC's role of implementing anti-cheating measures in the patch is a good one: it's a defensive measure to ensure that people cannot easily cheat in AoE3 on the EP. Excellent. 11/10

Things are different if the EP takes an "offensive" role, namely that of actively barring certain players from playing the game. That would mean that EP takes on a role of justice which is really only one Microsoft should have. Should ESOC really be doing that at all? Doesn't this endanger the EP, since it now goes beyond just a game modification and now actively moderates account? I think that this is possibly crossing a line which shouldn't be crossed (remember that Microsoft are very nice and lenient to tolerate the EP at all).

Other questions when we start discussing the actual management of the blacklist? Is this list private? Who gets to decide who is on the list and who isn't? What about poor quality cheating accusations? Moesbar hacks can be very subtle. I think that allowing cheating accusations to be rampant can really turn up the level of toxicity in the community. We already have issues with this since people still can't wrap their head around the "no cheating accusations" rules.

Who, in the end, gets to decide who is a cheater and who is not? What happens if I get on the wrong side of ESOC and they prevent me from playing on the EP? What about smurfing in tournaments?

I understand anti-cheating measures and fully support them and I can also understand the merits of a public cheater blacklist. But actively barring accounts from playing on EP? Based on a private and secret criteria?

ESOC would be taking on a role which should really be reserved to the people who are hosting the ESO servers.

That is something which is really iffy at best. Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Playing on ESO is a privilege. We don't host ESO and to be quite frank, it's already very nice of Microsoft to let the patch get away with all it does.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Gichtenlord »

Pretty sure this tool is a personal project from buckethead and is not meant to be implemented for the ep at all
r]
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Gichtenlord wrote:Pretty sure this tool is a personal project from buckethead and is not meant to be implemented for the ep at all


So that means that this goes for RE as well?

Isn't that somehow even worse? You get a tool which allows you to not get certain players on QS? How is that not cheating in itself?

Especially if the "cheater list" is a privately maintained list. Honestly I could just get on Buckethead's bad side and poof: I don't get games on QS.

This is borderline hacky and just a bit shady.

Buckethead is affiliated with ESOC so anything he does can be affiliated with the EP. Something else to keep in mind..
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Why not just implement a "NEW" QS? Make the ESOC Launcher a client with a QS functionality or something.

Stepping on the toes of the already existant QS is a bit off, in my eyes.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Gichtenlord »

iNcog wrote:So that means that this goes for RE as well?

Isn't that somehow even worse? You get a tool which allows you to not get certain players on QS? How is that not cheating?

Especially if the "cheater list" is a privately maintained list. Honestly I could just get on Buckethead's bad side and poof: I don't get games on QS.

This is borderline hacky and just a bit shady.

Pretty sure every player can make a custom llist
r]
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Gichtenlord wrote:
iNcog wrote:So that means that this goes for RE as well?

Isn't that somehow even worse? You get a tool which allows you to not get certain players on QS? How is that not cheating?

Especially if the "cheater list" is a privately maintained list. Honestly I could just get on Buckethead's bad side and poof: I don't get games on QS.

This is borderline hacky and just a bit shady.

Pretty sure every player can make a custom llist


then that's straight up cheating, lol

the point of QS is that you can't cherry pick your opponent/map/civs
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Gichtenlord »

You are forced to it or you will always get matched up vs a hacker at one point.
When I want to cherry pick, I'd just host a lobby
r]
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Gichtenlord wrote:You are forced to it or you will always get matched up vs a hacker at one point.


no comprendo

what do you mean "you are forced to it?"
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Bavaria Gichtenlord
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Gichtenlord »

Sometimes, hackers are in quicksearch for several hours and you would be denied to play any qs game during this time
r]
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

OK, I understand that.

But it's still cheating. In the end you are circumventing cheaters by cheating yourself.

Two wrongs don't really make a right and the details surrounding this tool are sketchy. What is to say that I don't piss off buckethead and get banned from QS? what is to say that someone doesn't get wrongly accused of hacking (like that's never happened before) and gets banned from QS?

This goes back to my point in OP: you're messing around with ESO here and it's not like you guys are hosting it. this does raise some legitimate concerns
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by _NiceKING_ »

if this thing is for EP only - it's fine, otherwise - no, I agree with incog
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

_NiceKING_ wrote:if this thing is for EP only - it's fine, otherwise - no


I don't think it's fine even if it's only for EP.. remember this is for lobbies and QS

Leave bannings to microsoft, that is not part of ESOC's mission
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

iNcog wrote:Should ESOC really be doing that at all?

Yes, because the game is on the verge of being dead and has no support from its developer whatsoever. Your argument 'microsoft should be the judge' doesn't apply because microsoft hasn't been active in banning cheaters for the past few years. The fact that someone is stepping in to block these cheaters from competitive play is a great thing and should not be hindered.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Gichtenlord »

Did I just agree with bramboy? :O
r]
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by knusch »

EP aims to improve balance and prevent ppl from cheating. If u got evidence that ppl engage in cheating (from what i assume and heard it's actually the case that the ep-team actually has prove of ppl launching the patch with installed cheats for example), a community created patch should be taking the position that cheaters r not welcomed to play this patch and as a result get banned.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Hazza54321 »

knusch wrote:EP aims to improve balance and prevent ppl from cheating. If u got evidence that ppl engage in cheating (from what i assume and heard it's actually the case that the ep-team actually has prove of ppl launching the patch with installed cheats for example), a community created patch should be taking the position that cheaters r not welcomed to play this patch and as a result get banned.

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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by zoom »

iNcog wrote:OK, I understand that.

But it's still cheating. In the end you are circumventing cheaters by cheating yourself.

Two wrongs don't really make a right and the details surrounding this tool are sketchy. What is to say that I don't piss off buckethead and get banned from QS? what is to say that someone doesn't get wrongly accused of hacking (like that's never happened before) and gets banned from QS?

This goes back to my point in OP: you're messing around with ESO here and it's not like you guys are hosting it. this does raise some legitimate concerns
I don't consider it cheating, but it's most likely illegal (on top of being against the rules). On the former, it doesn't afford you an unfair advantage over your opponent in a game, and on the latter, whether something is moral is much more interesting to me than whether it's technically allowed. Its morality is uncertain to me, but what is certain is that it still grants less authority than hosting a game.

For a lack of details, I definitely would not include such a modification in the EP until further notice. I would also prioritize developing EP features with the main purpose of increasing adoption of the patch. However, I would neither claim to know the developmental workload for this mod, nor presume to dictate what Jonatas must or must not do. After all, banning such a mod from the site would be monumentally hilarious, hypocritical and ironic.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by zoom »

knusch wrote:EP aims to improve balance and prevent ppl from cheating. If u got evidence that ppl engage in cheating (from what i assume and heard it's actually the case that the ep-team actually has prove of ppl launching the patch with installed cheats for example), a community created patch should be taking the position that cheaters r not welcomed to play this patch and as a result get banned.
Hello! It is good to see you on here. While what you are saying is certainly true, there are a couple of things to note with regards to your post:

Despite the misguided title of this thread, this modification (by the looks of it) cannot possibly have anything to do with the EP, since it would be a redundant addition to pre-existing anti-cheat features. In fact, I would even argue that banning certain IP:s or user-names is undesirable, so long as they are unable to cheat on the patch, especially considering the risk of EP users being "falsely flagged" due to errors. Finally, because of its seemingly controversial nature, I find it unlikely that ESOC would endorse this modification – let alone publish it.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:
iNcog wrote:Should ESOC really be doing that at all?

Yes, because the game is on the verge of being dead and has no support from its developer whatsoever. Your argument 'microsoft should be the judge' doesn't apply because microsoft hasn't been active in banning cheaters for the past few years. The fact that someone is stepping in to block these cheaters from competitive play is a great thing and should not be hindered.


A fair enough point but in which case we need to be hearing a lot more about these developments, not just a hush-project on the side where we shadow-ban people we don't like. That's what I consider this project to be until we get some more transparency.

On what grounds are people banned? Where is this list kept, who gets to decide who is on the list? What amounts of "proof"? Are we going to have public witch-hunting? How does this thing fit in with ESOC's current policies? This endeavor is doubtlessly noble, but without any transparency on this one, it's certainly questionable.

All the more questionable this tool would allow people to shadow ban other people that they don't like (assuming that it's a custom list for every player). Assuming that it's not a custom list for every player and that it is actually an ESOC-sanctioned list of cheaters, then we must really question and hear how such a list works. This is all the more difficult since this is probably directly against the rules which microsoft set for ESO.

Keep the dedgaem circle-jerk out of this one, since we want an actual discussion.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

zoom wrote:
knusch wrote:EP aims to improve balance and prevent ppl from cheating. If u got evidence that ppl engage in cheating (from what i assume and heard it's actually the case that the ep-team actually has prove of ppl launching the patch with installed cheats for example), a community created patch should be taking the position that cheaters r not welcomed to play this patch and as a result get banned.
Hello! It is good to see you on here. While what you are saying is certainly true, there are a couple of things to note with regards to your post:

Despite the misguided title of this thread, this modification (by the looks of it) cannot possibly have anything to do with the EP, since it would be a redundant addition to pre-existing anti-cheat features. In fact, I would even argue that banning certain IP:s or user-names is undesirable, so long as they are unable to cheat on the patch, especially considering the risk of EP users being "falsely flagged" due to errors. Finally, because of its seemingly controversial nature, I find it unlikely that ESOC would endorse this modification – let alone publish it.


If ESOC does not endorse this tool, then what this tool basically becomes is a "list of people on ESO we don't like who are shadow-banned". That to me could end up being extremely damaging to AoE3, especially if these bans are made on bad / incomplete criteria.

From the sound of it, the tool sounds like it could be used on either EP or RE. I just don't like the notion that someone gets to decide that a bunch of people on ESO are shadow-banned. It's sketchy as fuck, especially if that list is not public.

The best case scenario would be a public list of ESO names where everyone on that list will NOT get matched with people using the bucket-tool (for lack of a better name). The more people using the bucket-tool, the more some people may be left out of the community. If they're cheaters, fine. But that doesn't even matter. Cheaters have smurf accounts, if they can't get to you on one account, they'll just use another.

If ESOC does not sanction such a list (with perfectly clear criteria / transparency), then the quality of such a list may not be guaranteed. All the more reason to be against it.

Still not a fan. I'm skeptical at this point and would really like to hear more about it.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

Obviously the list would have to be official with solid proof - something ESOC has never approved and likely never will. I personally don't see a problem with this as long as proof is submitted privately and witch hunting doesn't become a thing.

In my opinion the coders and admins at ESOC are professional enough not to intentionally blacklist people who they dislike, so this isn't a concern in my opinion.

For the record ESOC is already doing things which are against microsoft's tos.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by irr3alist »

iNcog wrote:That to me could end up being extremely damaging to AoE3


I see many points which seem to have some credence, but as long as you as a person not wholeheartedly invest into EP then imo you have not much relevance to Buckethead's projects which are ALL about the EP.

To clarify: with the current state of people playing RE patch cuz "there arent any games" we shouldnt be critiquing any additional EP anti cheat measures, since you don't seem to worry about anti cheats anyways by sticking to the good ol' RE. Ergo: anything on the EP or whatever an EP player would do, should remain irrelevant to you.

The EP is not splitting up the community but taking a stand and helping the good guys out there. If your argument would be that some people get unfairly excluded from abusing a tiny non cheating group who are active on the EP then my answer would logically be to join that group rather than limiting their anticheat arsenal because the larger 'RE group' would fall prey to cheating accusations from the EP group?
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

Mr_Bramboy wrote:Obviously the list would have to be official with solid proof - something ESOC has never approved and likely never will. I personally don't see a problem with this as long as proof is submitted privately and witch hunting doesn't become a thing.

Is the list public or private? The existence of that list is going to provoke witch hunting, whether you like it or not. People are going to ask "who is on the list?" and "why am I on the list?". Are you going to include the players who have smurfed in events? Are you going to include players who have tried moesbar or who have maphacks on their desktops?

Mr_Bramboy wrote:In my opinion the coders and admins at ESOC are professional enough not to intentionally blacklist people who they dislike, so this isn't a concern in my opinion.

I don't know about that part, I've seen abuse from ESOC staff before. It's a concern to me (though admittedly not a large concern).

Mr_Bramboy wrote:For the record ESOC is already doing things which are against microsoft's tos.

I know this, this is precisely why I would advise against infringing TOS more than strictly necessary. This is probably the biggest issue I have here. Incorporating passive anti-cheating measures in the EP is one thing, having the power to essentially ban people from ESO is another thing.

One isolated hacker who is using maphacks or moesbar in QS is one thing; a group project where people use a third-party program to make sure that they don't get certain people in QS or in the lobby is another.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by iNcog »

irr3alist wrote:I see many points which seem to have some credence, but as long as you as a person not wholeheartedly invest into EP then imo you have not much relevance to Buckethead's projects which are ALL about the EP.

Is this project EP or RE? EP already has anti-cheating measures which are, afaik, effective. Cheaters get flagged if they try their shit on the EP.

As far as I know (again, I don't know much because we basically have no details) this is a third party program which allows people to shadow-ban users from QS and lobbies, on both RE and EP.


irr3alist wrote:To clarify: with the current state of people playing RE patch cuz "there arent any games" we shouldnt be critiquing any additional EP anti cheat measures, since you don't seem to worry about anti cheats anyways by sticking to the good ol' RE. Ergo: anything on the EP or whatever an EP player would do, should remain irrelevant to you.


What are you even talking about? I'm sorry maybe I'm just slow this afternoon but I don't understand what you're trying to say. You do realize I'm not even playing the game right now? When I do play the game, it's EP only. I don't think I've played a game on RE since the EP was released.

Something that you seem to be missing is that this third-party program is not affiliated to the EP. It could work on RE or the EP. I could be wrong, since this is all speculation at this point. We have no details to work with, no idea of what's being worked on. As far as I know, this is a third-party program which allows users to prevent certain other people from joining their lobbies or getting matches in QS.

If that program uses ONE unique list, then it's essentially a community pest list. That has to be against Microsoft's TOS, it's also something which I argue should not even exist.

If that program uses a custom list for each person, then essentially it's third party program which allows people to extend their pest list to QS, which would also be against MS TOS.

irr3alist wrote:The EP is not splitting up the community but taking a stand and helping the good guys out there. If your argument would be that some people get unfairly excluded from abusing a tiny non cheating group who are active on the EP then my answer would logically be to join that group rather than limiting their anticheat arsenal because the larger 'RE group' would fall prey to cheating accusations from the EP group?


I'm not sure what you're saying here. I have a headache so maybe I'm just too stupid to understand what you're trying to say. I am one of the most pro-EP person in the world though, of that I'm sure.

I opened this topic to make sure that the EP does not partake in shady shit like shadow-banning certain people from ESO. It's shady, it's against MS's TOS. Those TOS by the way, are already being infringed, but MS is being very nice and turning a blind eye to that. So my argument is to not abuse MS's patience.


Tl;dr: This is a shady project, I'd like to hear more and with the current amount of information I have on it, I'm against it.
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Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
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Re: ESOC Patch to block out certain players?

Post by knusch »

as far as im concerned i'd appreciate the EP-team taking a stand on whether it does or does not tolerate cheaters. since there r anti-cheat mechanisms in place to prevent identified cheats i'd assume it doesn't tolerate cheating and as a consequence one can argue that some sort of banning system is desireable. once u agree on that u have to look on how such a tool could look like. u brought up concerns about transparency and other difficulties that go with such a tool, which ofc r valid and have to be adressed. if u eventually conlude that there is no appropriate tool to do so then so be it.
since there is no information (at least i dont know of it) how such a tool would actually work it is kinda irrelevant to speculate about it, at least in my opinion. so atm to me the only real question is whether u want ppl using cheats being banned from EP and as previously mentioned i think they should indeed be banned from EP.

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