Competitive maps: Treasures

[EL FAMOSO]

Hi guys,

This topic might be discussed before, but I did not see it.
I saw you guys are making competitive tournaments, talking about the balance; on the first hand, about the different civilisations and their units, and on the other one, about the maps. According to me, map balancing is a very important thing, because I find it normal that specific civilisations should counter others, so yes, they should be balanced, but in a logical structure. Like if you take Pokemon, fire will counter herb, water will counter fire and herb will counter water. That's kinda basic and the most difficult thing is balancing the 'how much should they counter each other?'. Map balancing is different. I agree that on specific maps, some civilisations will be favored, just because they match their play style and their strengths. Like if you go on a water map, British can take the advantage on Iroquois.

However, 'standard maps' like diarouga likes to call them have to be STANDARD.
That means that they should not give an advantage to any of the two sides. The only difference-making reaching to victory should be skill and strategy. To do so, the ressources over the map have to be well divided, and that is on the way. Most of your maps are well balanced on the herds, mines and wood.

Still, even though some people would say it's part of skill and strategy (I agree that you may change something in your build order if you get a huge wood treasure at the beginning, like building a early market or so on...) I think that treasures are a problem in map balancing and competitive games.
Their position can be a problem (having a wood treasure next to your base is advantageous) but also the advantage that they give.

Why not trying to organize a tournament on non-treasure maps? I mean, it could be cool.
What do you think?

[Gendarme]

I think I would take a nap and wake up after 6 minutes.

[Rikikipu]

I totally agree with you. Treasures are a lot of luck. That's why for me Hudson Bay is not great a map. But for some people here there isn't any issue with a map with 150f, 150c, 160exp, 100w and 1cdb treasures. If I could decided, I would have fixed a lot of treasures (by nerfing or buffing the amount of resources).

[_H2O]

The concern assumes two things.

1. That treasures are random and unfair
2. That there is no counter play to treasuring.

Basically with a good scouting pattern you should be there to contest most good treasure most games or split them yourself. They add an element of skill to the game and the better player usually wins age 1.

The game is balanced with an expectation that different civs typically get different types of treasures in different amounts. The game would be very different balance wise if all treasures were removed.

In short I strongly disagree with this notion.

[gibson]

The concern assumes two things.

1. That treasures are random and unfair
2. That there is no counter play to treasuring.

Basically with a good scouting pattern you should be there to contest most good treasure most games or split them yourself. They add an element of skill to the game and the better player usually wins age 1.

The game is balanced with an expectation that different civs typically get different types of treasures in different amounts. The game would be very different balance wise if all treasures were removed.

In short I strongly disagree with this notion.

Agreed. Its mostly skill that one players gets a 30% explorer hp while the other gets a vil. A pretty even split as well.

[Garja]

It's all part of the game. It creates dynamic balance situations that are under the control of players for the most part. In the worst case it creates an imbalance that defines who s leading and who has to catch up.

[lesllamas]

While getting rid of treasures is probably never going to happen for good reason, that doesn't mean there can't be a discussion about which treasures might be better balanced than others. 140 food and the like can break games far more than 90 coin for example.

[mongo10]

tbh, without treasure u could go afk for the first 5 minutes. Age I is already kinda boring to play and if you remove treasures, you and the viewers aswell get bored as fuck.
In my opinion the only treasures, which could be removed and which are broken as fuck are native treasures if used correctly.

[tedere12]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

[sirmusket]

Hi guys,

This topic might be discussed before, but I did not see it.
I saw you guys are making competitive tournaments, talking about the balance; on the first hand, about the different civilisations and their units, and on the other one, about the maps. According to me, map balancing is a very important thing, because I find it normal that specific civilisations should counter others, so yes, they should be balanced, but in a logical structure. Like if you take Pokemon, fire will counter herb, water will counter fire and herb will counter water. That's kinda basic and the most difficult thing is balancing the 'how much should they counter each other?'. Map balancing is different. I agree that on specific maps, some civilisations will be favored, just because they match their play style and their strengths. Like if you go on a water map, British can take the advantage on Iroquois.

However, 'standard maps' like diarouga likes to call them have to be STANDARD.
That means that they should not give an advantage to any of the two sides. The only difference-making reaching to victory should be skill and strategy. To do so, the ressources over the map have to be well divided, and that is on the way. Most of your maps are well balanced on the herds, mines and wood.

Still, even though some people would say it's part of skill and strategy (I agree that you may change something in your build order if you get a huge wood treasure at the beginning, like building a early market or so on...) I think that treasures are a problem in map balancing and competitive games.
Their position can be a problem (having a wood treasure next to your base is advantageous) but also the advantage that they give.

Why not trying to organize a tournament on non-treasure maps? I mean, it could be cool.
What do you think?

Hey, I own copyright to thuggee avatar, even though I changed mine ESOC staff has kind of made it illegal to use that avatar unless its me, change when you can :)

[sirmusket]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

he will, also, if you are greek/alb, why would you use albanian flag... greece probably the richest country in all of europe in terms of history and culture, and albania.. well.. albania.. , just saying if i was half greek/alb , I'd be trying to hide the Albanian in me not express it

[oxaloacetate]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

he will, also, if you are greek/alb, why would you use albanian flag... greece probably the richest country in all of europe in terms of history and culture, and albania.. well.. albania.. , just saying if i was half greek/alb , I'd be trying to hide the Albanian in me not express it

Hey, since you're a douche, why don't you use a douche as your avatar?

[sirmusket]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

he will, also, if you are greek/alb, why would you use albanian flag... greece probably the richest country in all of europe in terms of history and culture, and albania.. well.. albania.. , just saying if i was half greek/alb , I'd be trying to hide the Albanian in me not express it

Hey, since you're a douche, why don't you use a douche as your avatar?

:O you triggered?

[pecelot]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

the thuggee is so ugly

maybe think of balancing 140f or 150c for 3 wolves, if you're gonna do anything with that, other than that I think treasures are a great feature, something for example AoC lacks :)

[sirmusket]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

the thuggee is so ugly

DRINK BLEACH

[P i k i l i c]

Change your avatar because people might confuse you for someone else

he will, also, if you are greek/alb, why would you use albanian flag... greece probably the richest country in all of europe in terms of history and culture, and albania.. well.. albania.. , just saying if i was half greek/alb , I'd be trying to hide the Albanian in me not express it

Stop bashing Albania because you are Serbian please, this is ridiculous. It is stupid to be ashamed of oneself's origins. Albania never had a huge population, don't expect them to win wars against much more populated countries lol. And it is not like they were cowards who didn't defend themselves, or lost every single battle. What Skanderberg did is amazing.
Btw before someone asks, I chose my nickname only for fun and have no balkanic origin

[edeholland]

So about these treasures...

[P i k i l i c]

Imo all treasures are cool and roughly balanced with the price of defeating their guardians, except those 140 and 150

[edeholland]

I hoped my sarcastic reMark would be enough, but off-topic posts (especially from SirMusket, oxaloacetate and P i k i l i c) will be removed from now on

[_H2O]

Thinking 140 food is broken is so 2010!

Also sir musket please don't make discriminatory comments on the forums!

[deuxballesman]

135 wood for two mere pistoleros now that was broken :)

[_H2O]

Yeah wood treasures are way too good on vanilla.

[deuxballesman]

and xp ones were crap if i remember correctly

[pecelot]

It's also weird that one lion may guard 30f as well as 50w...

[DaRkNiTe1698]

Some treasures are illogical actually.

30 food = 1 wolf
60 food = 2 wolfs
80 food = 3 wolfs (why no 90f?)
140 food = 2 wolfs + 1 comachero (so easy to kill with your hero sharpshooter ability), so it's kinda 2 wolfs = 140 food (lol) = broken
10 snow monkeys = 205 food (no food enough if you consider you spend much time on taking it)
2 wolfs 90 coin is broken.
1 tiger =50wood
2tigers = 90wood (why no 100??)
4 cougars 1 medicine man (really?)
4 cougars = 2 cows (seriously?)
3 outlaw riders 210 xp but 4 outlaw riders 320 xp (1 outlaw more 110 xps more? Wtf?)

These are some examples. I strongly disagree with ES decisions here. Anyway some treasures should be really nerfed, because they can make the difference on mirrors, for example. This is much unbalanced, especially if both players are doing the same BO (and one of them is much faster because of treasures). This is just my point of view at least.