The official fixed crate topic

Fixed crates?

Yes
66
58%
No
48
42%
 
Total votes: 114

User avatar
Italy Garja
Retired Contributor
Donator 02
Posts: 9729
Joined: Feb 11, 2015
ESO: Garja

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Garja »

Switching after first card is too late. You just age too late. 20 secs is a lot. Also first card time with TP = first card time with firepit because in any case you need a house asap to send it.
Also more shipments is just overkill. With 700W 600w you lack food. With 5v 4v you get housed. With 700w 5v it is just suboptimal because of the above mentioned drawbacks.

macacoalbino wrote:
Garja wrote:The range is predictable if you have played the game long enough and you're open minded.

Yeah the range is predictable, but think about a scenario where I know that in 40% of the cases I'm fucked and 60% I'm convinced that its fair. I agree with that MU. I click in and get the worst start. That's it, 1st game in a BO3 gone. You don't get the chance to see all the different starts and how the MU plays in each case.
I know it's not always that way ( in which you just lose/win because of a crate start), but with some civs we can all agree it happens. Why not eliminate this variance so that I know from the start which MU to click in?

There isn't a single scenario where you're fucked by the crates alone. Unless ofc the MU is already very unbalanced, which is a completely different ball game.
Image Image Image
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Mitoe »

It doesn't matter if you miss out on 250exp. Your first 3-4 shipments in colonial will be back to back anyway, and after that 250xp is worth far less than the extra 1-2 vills you had gathering the entire time. Like I said the age time is slower but everything else is faster. You actually get more units out than if you did standard and aged on time.

Edit: and this is why no one agrees on game balance. No one can agree on whats good or bad :P
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

ImageAll this time I've been calculating the percentage by doing total votes divided by yes votes. Now I notice the % is right there next to the bar lol
User avatar
France Diarouga
Lancer
Donator 01
Posts: 506
Joined: Oct 31, 2016
ESO: diarouga

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:It doesn't matter if you miss out on 250exp. Your first 3-4 shipments in colonial will be back to back anyway, and after that 250xp is worth far less than the extra 1-2 vills you had gathering the entire time. Like I said the age time is slower but everything else is faster. You actually get more units out than if you did standard and aged on time.

Your first shipments will be back to back only because you age up super later.
And actually you only get 1 more vills, because the 2nd is a vill you have to train because you're late, and the other aztec will train it when he reaches the 2nd age.
So basically, that's 1vills vs aging 30sec sooner? I'd take the 30sec anyday, you can have the 3wp shipment 30sec earlier and thus 1 more wp (and 1wp is 2vills...).

You don't seem to understand it, but having your 5pike batch earlier is a huge deal, you kill your opponent's TP, how isn't it worth :P?
Oh, and if you start with 300w you can go market and age in time, so it's not even close.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Mitoe »

You just have to try it for yourself I guess. I'm convinced it's much better than not building the TP. Though I also don't ship 3WP and everyone calls me an idiot for that too, so I guess I have a history of being "wrong" about how to play Aztec.
User avatar
France Diarouga
Lancer
Donator 01
Posts: 506
Joined: Oct 31, 2016
ESO: diarouga

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:You just have to try it for yourself I guess. I'm convinced it's much better than not building the TP. Though I also don't ship 3WP and everyone calls me an idiot for that too, so I guess I have a history of being "wrong" about how to play Aztec.

I did try it, and it's not worth.
User avatar
Canada Mitoe
Advanced Theory Craftsman
Posts: 5486
Joined: Aug 23, 2015
ESO: Mitoe
GameRanger ID: 346407

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Mitoe »

So I guess we agree to disagree.

Anyway this got very off topic very fast. Good luck continuing this argument everyone!
User avatar
Brazil macacoalbino
Howdah
Posts: 1305
Joined: Apr 2, 2015
ESO: MacacoAlbino
Clan: 3Huss

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by macacoalbino »

Garja wrote:There isn't a single scenario that you can think of where you're fucked by the crates alone. Unless ofc the MU is already very unbalanced, which is a completely different ball game.

Ok, think about japs vs dutch with skirm pike pressure, the difference between the skirms getting to your base when you're building a rax or when your yumis are about to pop out.
Or as france/germany having a shipment or not vs a timing push from brits or russia for example.
Imo these MUs are not that bad balanced, but the spot you're gonna be in, in each game, is highly volatile depending on the crate start.
Image

Image
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

Dsy wrote:Do you mean you always want germans start with 200w?
The way I see it every civ would get the wood start. Currently it's the start everyone is hoping for and early TPs add depth to the game, so it would be an easy choice. Then beyond that we would probably end up buffing the civs who don't benefit from it as much, but in different ways.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

iNcog wrote:Yeah I meant short-term. It's basically a balance reset and then it's easier to balance from there. But do you really want to reset balance, especially considering the nice state balance is at right now? I don't think I personally would
Well that is what the poll is about I guess. Keep in mind though that if we change the random crate to be fixed but the same for (almost) all civs, barely anything changes.
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Atomiswave »

Goodspeed wrote:
iNcog wrote:Yeah I meant short-term. It's basically a balance reset and then it's easier to balance from there. But do you really want to reset balance, especially considering the nice state balance is at right now? I don't think I personally would
Well that is what the poll is about I guess. Keep in mind though that if we change the random crate to be fixed but the same for (almost) all civs, barely anything changes.


Ofc it should not be the same, and other changes will be needed too, while some will remain like goon, wall neft, unit shipments, etc..... The goal is to fix most imbalances with fixed crates, while fixing the small amount that is left with other changes.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

Atomiswave wrote:
Goodspeed wrote:
iNcog wrote:Yeah I meant short-term. It's basically a balance reset and then it's easier to balance from there. But do you really want to reset balance, especially considering the nice state balance is at right now? I don't think I personally would
Well that is what the poll is about I guess. Keep in mind though that if we change the random crate to be fixed but the same for (almost) all civs, barely anything changes.


Ofc it should not be the same, and other changes will be needed too, while some will remain like goon, wall neft, unit shipments, etc..... The goal is to fix most imbalances with fixed crates, while fixing the small amount that is left with other changes.
To me the goal would be creating a state of balance we can actually grasp as well as removing the random element in the crate start which will always benefit one of the civs more than the other. The basis should be the same crate for all and only change it if we have to. It's hard to think of a civ which would not get the wood crate if all the other civs do, don't you think?

I now realise most people may have very different ideas of what this would look like than I do :hmm:
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by momuuu »

I think dutch would prefer the 100g actually.
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

They might, although Mitoe made a good point earlier: In most cases they would age with 15v regardless. Anyway I'm still not convinced the early TP is not the way to go for Dutch.
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Atomiswave »

Goodspeed wrote:
Atomiswave wrote:
Show hidden quotes


Ofc it should not be the same, and other changes will be needed too, while some will remain like goon, wall neft, unit shipments, etc..... The goal is to fix most imbalances with fixed crates, while fixing the small amount that is left with other changes.
To me the goal would be creating a state of balance we can actually grasp as well as removing the random element in the crate start which will always benefit one of the civs more than the other. The basis should be the same crate for all and only change it if we have to. It's hard to think of [b]a civ which would not get the wood crate if all the other civs do, don't you think?[/b]

I now realise most people may have very different ideas of what this would look like than I do :hmm:


One wood crate right?
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

Yes, I mean substitute the current random crate with a wood crate as the default then go from there.
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Atomiswave »

Goodspeed wrote:Yes, I mean substitute the current random crate with a wood crate as the default then go from there.


Yes, and if it proves too much for some civs, replace it with food, except for Dutch. Also, what about China's crates, do they stay the same?
User avatar
Netherlands Goodspeed
Retired Contributor
Posts: 13002
Joined: Feb 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Goodspeed »

In that scenario I think we would sooner look at nerfing those civs in different ways, since removing the early TP is a fairly big change and I think we would be looking for something less impactful.
China would probably get +100f, but I'm speculating here.
User avatar
Hungary Dsy
Lancer
Posts: 994
Joined: Jun 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Dsy »

Why everyone want to buff china lol?
They re pretty strong.
User avatar
Serbia Atomiswave
Lancer
Posts: 794
Joined: Dec 27, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Atomiswave »

Dsy wrote:Why everyone want to buff china lol?
They re pretty strong.


China was never strong, it was average. With current nerfs it really needs +100f either way.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by momuuu »

Goodspeed wrote:They might, although Mitoe made a good point earlier: In most cases they would age with 15v regardless. Anyway I'm still not convinced the early TP is not the way to go for Dutch.

I've done some testing with it and I started having better results when I stopped doing early TP or even transition TP, but I can see it somehow still being decent yeah.
User avatar
Great Britain britishmusketeer
Howdah
Posts: 1845
Joined: Feb 28, 2015

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by britishmusketeer »

Goodspeed wrote:The way I see it every civ would get the wood start. Currently it's the start everyone is hoping for and early TPs add depth to the game, so it would be an easy choice. Then beyond that we would probably end up buffing the civs who don't benefit from it as much, but in different ways.

That could lead to the game being balanced around tps even more than it already is though, which would worsen non-tp map balance.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by momuuu »

I honestly think I'd remove the early TP for France/Germany and then give Japan and india a wood start, iro whatever makes them with wood but without tp (so only 100w?) and then I'd love to see all other civs have random crates still.
User avatar
France Diarouga
Lancer
Donator 01
Posts: 506
Joined: Oct 31, 2016
ESO: diarouga

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by Diarouga »

Jerom wrote:I honestly think I'd remove the early TP for France/Germany and then give Japan and india a wood start, iro whatever makes them with wood but without tp (so only 100w?) and then I'd love to see all other civs have random crates still.

I would be fine with that, but the issue is that extra random food crate, because then the opponent's civ would sometimes have +100f, which is of course not fair.
Netherlands momuuu
Ninja
Posts: 14237
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
ESO: Jerom_

Re: The official fixed crate topic

Post by momuuu »

Diarouga wrote:
Jerom wrote:I honestly think I'd remove the early TP for France/Germany and then give Japan and india a wood start, iro whatever makes them with wood but without tp (so only 100w?) and then I'd love to see all other civs have random crates still.

I would be fine with that, but the issue is that extra random food crate, because then the opponent's civ would sometimes have +100f, which is of course not fair.

Yeah I know, why can't it even be fixed like I suggested? Who said that? It just makes me so sad if it's true :(

On the other hand, the crates really don't matter much for the other civs.. Sometimes you get a market, sometimes you dont get a market whatever. Sometimes you get a market but a little bit differently. It's not that exciting. I play a lot of dutch and literally don't give a shit except when its a wood start and my opponent's civ suddenly is 10% better.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 12 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV