what do i even do against british as dutch

India Shikari
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what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

alright so i saw his deck and realized there is no way i can outboom him by making banks. he made tp in age 1 and had vc in his deck so i felt like i have to play agressive in age2 or i'll just loose. so i tried it but i don't know how to rush with dutch. i saw once in a tournaent 1 player did 10 skirms from double rax. does anyone know that strat? so when i played aggressive i thought i killed some of his vills then i pulled back and started to make banks. i also think i got screwed because of that third mine but regardless he was having more units than me. so wha could i have done in all aspects?
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by aligator92 »

I don't have the patience to watch the rec right now but i think your best bet is a huss semi FF because
1.) having many vills due to VC also means you have to spread out a lot making you much more vulnurable to raiding. This will force him to spend wood on pikes as musks do a rather poor job at defending a spread economy
2.) raiding is extra effective at lower levels
3.) if he maxes manors and then follows you to Fortress you get a nice window to do a lot of damage while he is still aging and upgrading units
Your composition should be huss/skirm with enough ruyters to oneshot his huss
I guess you can also try ruyter falc
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

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I could beat a pr 20 brit with a no-bank pike rush and I'm not even good.

Have you considered pouring 3000 hours into the game?
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by supahons »

i watched it in fast speed mode but
you've aged with 16 vills + 48 coin = minimum 148c overgathered, sometimes you can even age with 14 vills

then you build a market and get housed with an all-in rush against a vc boom (why do you need a market?)
your BO: 3v - 8 pikes - 700w - 3 huss, no banks = if you fail you're dead

idk how to play the dutch pike rush (*effectively), but these are a few observations you could do better
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

deleted_user wrote:I could beat a pr 20 brit with a no-bank pike rush and I'm not even good.

Have you considered pouring 3000 hours into the game?

1
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

pecelot wrote:shikari

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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

supahons wrote:i watched it in fast speed mode but
you've aged with 16 vills + 48 coin = minimum 148c overgathered, sometimes you can even age with 14 vills

then you build a market and get housed with an all-in rush against a vc boom (why do you need a market?)
your BO: 3v - 8 pikes - 700w - 3 huss, no banks = if you fail you're dead

idk how to play the dutch pike rush (*effectively), but these are a few observations you could do better


I made bank because i thought I should at least have a hunting dogs and placermine after a while or it'll be too all in. Or that was my reasoning. I dont know when to pull my 3 gold mine vills to food so that i have just clean 800f when aging with 14 vills. Also do you make stable with that 700 w and do 8 huss push?
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

aligator92 wrote:I don't have the patience to watch the rec right now but i think your best bet is a huss semi FF because
1.) having many vills due to VC also means you have to spread out a lot making you much more vulnurable to raiding. This will force him to spend wood on pikes as musks do a rather poor job at defending a spread economy
2.) raiding is extra effective at lower levels
3.) if he maxes manors and then follows you to Fortress you get a nice window to do a lot of damage while he is still aging and upgrading units
Your composition should be huss/skirm with enough ruyters to oneshot his huss
I guess you can also try ruyter falc


How does musk do a poor job at defending raids?
Also something viable at lower levels i don't think is viable at all. That just means i won because other player apm wasn't enough but what would i or other player do at high level does he have no choice then to just get a vill or two.
3. Don't you think that window is rather small?
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by dansil92 »

Im pretty close to the same pr level as you. Generally in this matchup (ive played both sides, brit and dutch) british has the advantage until they run out of safe coin mines. Thats when you need to push. The British are really coin dependent (musk huss is nearly as bad as skirm goon) but also wood heavy so they really really hurt if they have to go to plantations. The trick to playing as Dutch (in my experience) is to be really defensive and keep a couple huss or ruyt sitting by the far coin mines. AS SOON AS YOU SEE VILLS MOVE TO THE MINE you chase the villies away and push. Abuse your bottomless coin. Every time i have lost this matchup as brits is because i ran out of coin and every time i win as dutch its because i coin starve my opponent. Raiding helps a lot too like @aligator92 said. British are very hunt dependent too especially if they go longbows but at lower pr like us going to mills isnt as game throwing as it is at the highest levels.
You can do an all in pike rush also but i think its too risky vs brits. If he's doing a vc boom you can get up all your banks np. Colonial militia is a good card to keep in your deck.
British have very good musks but you have among the best skirms. Look for cav upgrade cards in the deck (this is important, 3 carded huss & goons are both very hard to handle with ruyters) and also be aware if there is 'improved grenades' as a gren push can be really bad if you arent prepared for it- age 2 skirms are very helpful in this case but you have to use your range advantage or the grens will turn your skirms into shrapnel.
Vs brits you might also consider going ruyter + artillery. Its a really really coin heavy composition so keep that in mind. The perk of this composition is that its less micro intensive than skirms. Falconets are sometimes the only way to deal with large musketeer masses if your micro is mediocre.
Honestly brit is a really strong civ so dont feel terrible if you struggle against them
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

dansil92 wrote:Im pretty close to the same pr level as you. Generally in this matchup (ive played both sides, brit and dutch) british has the advantage until they run out of safe coin mines. Thats when you need to push. The British are really coin dependent (musk huss is nearly as bad as skirm goon) but also wood heavy so they really really hurt if they have to go to plantations. The trick to playing as Dutch (in my experience) is to be really defensive and keep a couple huss or ruyt sitting by the far coin mines. AS SOON AS YOU SEE VILLS MOVE TO THE MINE you chase the villies away and push. Abuse your bottomless coin. Every time i have lost this matchup as brits is because i ran out of coin and every time i win as dutch its because i coin starve my opponent. Raiding helps a lot too like @aligator92 said. British are very hunt dependent too especially if they go longbows but at lower pr like us going to mills isnt as game throwing as it is at the highest levels.
You can do an all in pike rush also but i think its too risky vs brits. If he's doing a vc boom you can get up all your banks np. Colonial militia is a good card to keep in your deck.
British have very good musks but you have among the best skirms. Look for cav upgrade cards in the deck (this is important, 3 carded huss & goons are both very hard to handle with ruyters) and also be aware if there is 'improved grenades' as a gren push can be really bad if you arent prepared for it- age 2 skirms are very helpful in this case but you have to use your range advantage or the grens will turn your skirms into shrapnel.
Vs brits you might also consider going ruyter + artillery. Its a really really coin heavy composition so keep that in mind. The perk of this composition is that its less micro intensive than skirms. Falconets are sometimes the only way to deal with large musketeer masses if your micro is mediocre.
Honestly brit is a really strong civ so dont feel terrible if you struggle against them


And it's not even japan. To me brit feels like rasier version of japan
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by dansil92 »

@Shikari honestly japan isnt hard to beat 1v1... its just a matchup that dutch is really really bad at as they cant pressure early and dont have a two falc shipment. Most other civs dont have much trouble if you play well and keep pressure up early
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

dansil92 wrote:@Shikari honestly japan isnt hard to beat 1v1... its just a matchup that dutch is really really bad at as they cant pressure early and dont have a two falc shipment. Most other civs dont have much trouble if you play well and keep pressure up early

Ok so what would you do as france against japan.
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by dansil92 »

Shikari wrote:
dansil92 wrote:@Shikari honestly japan isnt hard to beat 1v1... its just a matchup that dutch is really really bad at as they cant pressure early and dont have a two falc shipment. Most other civs dont have much trouble if you play well and keep pressure up early

Ok so what would you do as france against japan.


Double barracks semi ff? 10-15 musks + trade route, push in a bit, hit some vills or any early units, hopefully get them to pop minutemen, immediately retreat then fortress with fast ageup where you switch to skirms and artillery making goons if necessary and using your colonial musks to defend arty/ siege shrines... standard french play against infantry civs like japan? Maybe a few cuirs if they go yumi heavy & If japan walls you can go musk artillery for extra siege
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

dansil92 wrote:
Shikari wrote:
dansil92 wrote:@Shikari honestly japan isnt hard to beat 1v1... its just a matchup that dutch is really really bad at as they cant pressure early and dont have a two falc shipment. Most other civs dont have much trouble if you play well and keep pressure up early

Ok so what would you do as france against japan.


Double barracks semi ff? 10-15 musks + trade route, push in a bit, hit some vills or any early units, hopefully get them to pop minutemen, immediately retreat then fortress with fast ageup where you switch to skirms and artillery making goons if necessary and using your colonial musks to defend arty/ siege shrines... standard french play against infantry civs like japan? Maybe a few cuirs if they go yumi heavy & If japan walls you can go musk artillery for extra siege

Why double barrack? Also don't commit to jap's base, siege the shrines.
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by aligator92 »

How does musk do a poor job at defending raids?
Also something viable at lower levels i don't think is viable at all. That just means i won because other player apm wasn't enough but what would i or other player do at high level does he have no choice then to just get a vill or two.
3. Don't you think that window is rather small?

1. Musk are fine if your gatherers are all in the same spot but as the brit player will have to extent onto multiple hunts they cannot cover everything at the same time. They are just too slow in that case and do not do enough damage to cav. So the rading player can just threaten one set of vills, pick one of and when the musk arrive, run to another set and pick one of there and so on. Against pike this is much harder.
2. I think at a high level this MU is just super hard and the dutch player has to adapt and outplay i think.
3. No. Dutch should click up first, has the fast aging politician and has 2 shadow teched (auto upgrading by aging) units in Skirm and Ruyters. You will also get another window a couple of minutes later when brit's ressources run out and he has to move a lot of vills to even more spread out locations or transition to mills/plantations

@dansil92 Brit does not want to go for Musk/Huss but Lb/Goon/Huss as Lb beat skirms and crush Ruyters. Making Musk/Huss would play into dutches hands as it allows dutch to go for the coin heavy skirm/ruyter compositions
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by dansil92 »

@Diarouga at lt level making two barracks is mostly to make the japan player think you are committed and waste resources on extra defence. Its not 'optimal' but it seems to work for me. Also allows you to start good production of units once you age. I did mention to retreat as soon as mm pop. Getting them to call those early can give you a big advantage when falcs come in.

@aligator92 i have yet to see a pr 20 go anything but musk huss as brits in fortress
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by momuuu »

Okay so ultimately I think your problems have nothing to do with British but simply that you just don't use the proper build order. Theres a few quick tips:

1) You should aim to age with 15 villagers. That means that you have to make 6 villagers and then ship 3 more. So at some point you need to pull villagers off of coin when you've gathered enough coin.
2) In transition to age 2 I think Dutch should always just get a bank. Keep 5 vills on food and put 10 villagers on wood, this will make it so that you will be able to build a bank just before or when you age up. Make sure to put vills on coin afterwards so you can queue up a new vill, you might occasionally have a little bit of downtime. I think there are no scenarios where Dutch shouldn't do this, they just aren't suited for market + TP as then you're just playing a worse version of France.
3) Speaking of that, by 8:30 you've built zero banks. You are super all in, you've gotten literally no economical things. Yet, you're sitting back against British (which, as we all know, gets more economy simply by building houses and this british player in particular decided to randomly VC boom at 6 minutes). I think for much of the game you still had a shot of winning, but you sit back way too long. By the time you push out the british player is barely catching up with you, and barely wins each fight. I'd say that you'd have won this game if you had just pushed out a minute or so earlier. At 7:30 he has 5 pikes and 6 longbow while you have 14 skirms and 6 pikes. At 8:20 you have 5 hussars, 14 skirms and 6 pikes and he has a grant total of 5 pikes and 8 longbow. If you are attacking at this point, you will win the game I think. By the time you start attacking you actually still have more army but you micro your hussars somewhat poorly and then get scared. By the time a real fight happens its 10:30 and your opponent has caught up in military, partially because of poor macro by you and because you were still catching up in economy.
4) Ultimately, I think your entire build order is not good. While it is true that with better execution you could still have won, I think the biggest gain for you is in simply finding a strong build order. The standard is to get a bank while aging (like I pointed out, and with 15 vills), then get a stable or barracks and two houses from 400w, ship bank wagon to build a bank, ship 700w next to get a bank, market and second military building. That's about the basic start. This might be a useful resource: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1778

It's probably too early to be thinking about match up specifics. I know I managed to get to 1st lt by simply learning a standard Dutch build order and executing it properly. Then you should slowly start thinking about the civ you are facing.
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

momuuu wrote:Okay so ultimately I think your problems have nothing to do with British but simply that you just don't use the proper build order. Theres a few quick tips:

1) You should aim to age with 15 villagers. That means that you have to make 6 villagers and then ship 3 more. So at some point you need to pull villagers off of coin when you've gathered enough coin.
2) In transition to age 2 I think Dutch should always just get a bank. Keep 5 vills on food and put 10 villagers on wood, this will make it so that you will be able to build a bank just before or when you age up. Make sure to put vills on coin afterwards so you can queue up a new vill, you might occasionally have a little bit of downtime. I think there are no scenarios where Dutch shouldn't do this, they just aren't suited for market + TP as then you're just playing a worse version of France.
3) Speaking of that, by 8:30 you've built zero banks. You are super all in, you've gotten literally no economical things. Yet, you're sitting back against British (which, as we all know, gets more economy simply by building houses and this british player in particular decided to randomly VC boom at 6 minutes). I think for much of the game you still had a shot of winning, but you sit back way too long. By the time you push out the british player is barely catching up with you, and barely wins each fight. I'd say that you'd have won this game if you had just pushed out a minute or so earlier. At 7:30 he has 5 pikes and 6 longbow while you have 14 skirms and 6 pikes. At 8:20 you have 5 hussars, 14 skirms and 6 pikes and he has a grant total of 5 pikes and 8 longbow. If you are attacking at this point, you will win the game I think. By the time you start attacking you actually still have more army but you micro your hussars somewhat poorly and then get scared. By the time a real fight happens its 10:30 and your opponent has caught up in military, partially because of poor macro by you and because you were still catching up in economy.
4) Ultimately, I think your entire build order is not good. While it is true that with better execution you could still have won, I think the biggest gain for you is in simply finding a strong build order. The standard is to get a bank while aging (like I pointed out, and with 15 vills), then get a stable or barracks and two houses from 400w, ship bank wagon to build a bank, ship 700w next to get a bank, market and second military building. That's about the basic start. This might be a useful resource: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1778

It's probably too early to be thinking about match up specifics. I know I managed to get to 1st lt by simply learning a standard Dutch build order and executing it properly. Then you should slowly start thinking about the civ you are facing.


I can play the standard dutch as well but as i stated above i think i just cant out boom brits with banks but there isn't any bo online on how to rush with dutch so i did everything in game at the end my res graph was more than brit though but i lost shit tonne of vills. Yeah i think i wasn't aggressive enough.
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by supahons »

[spoiler]
Shikari wrote:
supahons wrote:i watched it in fast speed mode but
you've aged with 16 vills + 48 coin = minimum 148c overgathered, sometimes you can even age with 14 vills

then you build a market and get housed with an all-in rush against a vc boom (why do you need a market?)
your BO: 3v - 8 pikes - 700w - 3 huss, no banks = if you fail you're dead

idk how to play the dutch pike rush (*effectively), but these are a few observations you could do better


I made bank because i thought I should at least have a hunting dogs and placermine after a while or it'll be too all in. Or that was my reasoning. I dont know when to pull my 3 gold mine vills to food so that i have just clean 800f when aging with 14 vills. Also do you make stable with that 700 w and do 8 huss push?
[/spoiler]

yes, but just with your BO you had already been all-in, then the market would not have gotten you back in the game. I think you could have won this, if you had saved some time here and there and didn't idle your military for so long. You knew very early that he is going to do this, with only VC in his deck and tp start with Brit.

i couldn't find a post with all the civs and vill age up times, but here are the standard age up times:
https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php ... 21#p341021
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

aligator92 wrote:
How does musk do a poor job at defending raids?
Also something viable at lower levels i don't think is viable at all. That just means i won because other player apm wasn't enough but what would i or other player do at high level does he have no choice then to just get a vill or two.
3. Don't you think that window is rather small?

1. Musk are fine if your gatherers are all in the same spot but as the brit player will have to extent onto multiple hunts they cannot cover everything at the same time. They are just too slow in that case and do not do enough damage to cav. So the rading player can just threaten one set of vills, pick one of and when the musk arrive, run to another set and pick one of there and so on. Against pike this is much harder.
2. I think at a high level this MU is just super hard and the dutch player has to adapt and outplay i think.
3. No. Dutch should click up first, has the fast aging politician and has 2 shadow teched (auto upgrading by aging) units in Skirm and Ruyters. You will also get another window a couple of minutes later when brit's ressources run out and he has to move a lot of vills to even more spread out locations or transition to mills/plantations

@dansil92 Brit does not want to go for Musk/Huss but Lb/Goon/Huss as Lb beat skirms and crush Ruyters. Making Musk/Huss would play into dutches hands as it allows dutch to go for the coin heavy skirm/ruyter compositions


Lol i just played as france against british. And raided a shit lot with like 2 control groups. But i only managed to get 10 vills. The graph was like brit get more vills then me then lose a vills then more then equal but then as i reached fortress i stopped raiding since i was planning to attack it went back and forth and then my skirms cur composition lost to huss goon and lb compo at then end he had more vills. Btw i also sea bokmed a little with 700w and 600w shipments.
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

Shikari wrote:
aligator92 wrote:
How does musk do a poor job at defending raids?
Also something viable at lower levels i don't think is viable at all. That just means i won because other player apm wasn't enough but what would i or other player do at high level does he have no choice then to just get a vill or two.
3. Don't you think that window is rather small?

1. Musk are fine if your gatherers are all in the same spot but as the brit player will have to extent onto multiple hunts they cannot cover everything at the same time. They are just too slow in that case and do not do enough damage to cav. So the rading player can just threaten one set of vills, pick one of and when the musk arrive, run to another set and pick one of there and so on. Against pike this is much harder.
2. I think at a high level this MU is just super hard and the dutch player has to adapt and outplay i think.
3. No. Dutch should click up first, has the fast aging politician and has 2 shadow teched (auto upgrading by aging) units in Skirm and Ruyters. You will also get another window a couple of minutes later when brit's ressources run out and he has to move a lot of vills to even more spread out locations or transition to mills/plantations

@dansil92 Brit does not want to go for Musk/Huss but Lb/Goon/Huss as Lb beat skirms and crush Ruyters. Making Musk/Huss would play into dutches hands as it allows dutch to go for the coin heavy skirm/ruyter compositions


Lol i just played as france against british. And raided a shit lot with like 2 control groups. But i only managed to get 10 vills. The graph was like brit get more vills then me then lose a vills then more then equal but then as i reached fortress i stopped raiding since i was planning to attack it went back and forth and then my skirms cur composition lost to huss goon and lb compo at then end he had more vills. Btw i also sea bokmed a little with 700w and 600w shipments.


Yes i saw my replay and i agree mere hunting dogs could not really do that wonders for your eco. But its nice to have market when you have to trade res.. Regarding idling vills i think its just my apm or my macro all the time when i wasn't doing something with my army i was trying to fix my macro or herd or ehatever with vills
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Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by momuuu »

Shikari wrote:
momuuu wrote:Okay so ultimately I think your problems have nothing to do with British but simply that you just don't use the proper build order. Theres a few quick tips:

1) You should aim to age with 15 villagers. That means that you have to make 6 villagers and then ship 3 more. So at some point you need to pull villagers off of coin when you've gathered enough coin.
2) In transition to age 2 I think Dutch should always just get a bank. Keep 5 vills on food and put 10 villagers on wood, this will make it so that you will be able to build a bank just before or when you age up. Make sure to put vills on coin afterwards so you can queue up a new vill, you might occasionally have a little bit of downtime. I think there are no scenarios where Dutch shouldn't do this, they just aren't suited for market + TP as then you're just playing a worse version of France.
3) Speaking of that, by 8:30 you've built zero banks. You are super all in, you've gotten literally no economical things. Yet, you're sitting back against British (which, as we all know, gets more economy simply by building houses and this british player in particular decided to randomly VC boom at 6 minutes). I think for much of the game you still had a shot of winning, but you sit back way too long. By the time you push out the british player is barely catching up with you, and barely wins each fight. I'd say that you'd have won this game if you had just pushed out a minute or so earlier. At 7:30 he has 5 pikes and 6 longbow while you have 14 skirms and 6 pikes. At 8:20 you have 5 hussars, 14 skirms and 6 pikes and he has a grant total of 5 pikes and 8 longbow. If you are attacking at this point, you will win the game I think. By the time you start attacking you actually still have more army but you micro your hussars somewhat poorly and then get scared. By the time a real fight happens its 10:30 and your opponent has caught up in military, partially because of poor macro by you and because you were still catching up in economy.
4) Ultimately, I think your entire build order is not good. While it is true that with better execution you could still have won, I think the biggest gain for you is in simply finding a strong build order. The standard is to get a bank while aging (like I pointed out, and with 15 vills), then get a stable or barracks and two houses from 400w, ship bank wagon to build a bank, ship 700w next to get a bank, market and second military building. That's about the basic start. This might be a useful resource: https://eso-community.net/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1778

It's probably too early to be thinking about match up specifics. I know I managed to get to 1st lt by simply learning a standard Dutch build order and executing it properly. Then you should slowly start thinking about the civ you are facing.


I can play the standard dutch as well but as i stated above i think i just cant out boom brits with banks but there isn't any bo online on how to rush with dutch so i did everything in game at the end my res graph was more than brit though but i lost shit tonne of vills. Yeah i think i wasn't aggressive enough.

So, even if you go for an aggressive build order, you have to build a bank. Although I have some variations of aggression, these are extremely all in and honestly just for trolling. You can get a bank in transition, and then ship either pikes or hussars while building either pikes or hussars for some pretty heavy early pressure. This is something that I occasionally do myself on RE to have fun and to abuse the bad hunts/make up for my own hunts, and this can definitely work.

However, I still think it's suboptimal compared to the normal boom build, even against British. While British in fact can outeco you, there is still a reasonable timing window for you and I don't even think you have to hit that specific timing. The details on how to beat British as Dutch against competent players are far too complicated to bother about right now. You have much to work on currently.

I'm pretty sure I maintained a master sergeant rank back in the day by literally only using the bad, outdated mr Milo FF. And honestly, this also becomes more clear when you actually take a look at your opponent's build. It was utter shit and any decent dutch bank boom would have obliterated the british player without question. If you can actually perform a 700w build or a bank wagon build properly, you will be destroying players like this (he went VC first and then didn't VC boom but actually ship 6 musks and 6 longbows, it was terribly done by him). Like I said, focus on doing a good build order first. Whenever I play people below captain I am convinced they just can't actually execute a normal build order. In mirrors with friends for example we'd try to do the same thing and I'd be ahead by 10-15 units. I actually coached a friend a bit on being more crisp with his build order and that improved his gameplay by a lot because he was just not doing it right. I linked my guide, it's very in depth and if you actually perform those build orders properly you will improve a lot.
India Shikari
Dragoon
Posts: 426
Joined: Nov 28, 2018
ESO: rahuru

Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by Shikari »

There is no quote button on latest momuuu reply. So I'll just write it without quoting. Yes i also thought its weird that brit player hadn't outboomed me. Ok next I'll post my rec playing std. And wow you are the one who wrote that guide. Nice that guide is really good. Just one more question so i would do a std. 4 bank semi huss ff against brit. Which composition would you say i do. Skirm huss or skirm ruters.
No Flag deleted_user
Ninja
Posts: 14364
Joined: Mar 26, 2015

Re: what do i even do against british as dutch

Post by deleted_user »

From no bank to four bank.

Look at how ESOC corrupts our innocent, aggressive corporals to push its anti-rush agenda!

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