China vs Brit

[[Armag] diarouga]

We had an argument about China vs Brit in a twitch chat with Garja and kaiser claiming that China can (should?) beat Brit.
I've never won that MU against a good brit player as China (spadel, miggo etc) although I'm a decent chinese player. I don't know a single chinese player who thinks that this MU is okay (Lukas, Umeu and tabben all said that it was hopeless iirc), and I've never seen a convincing chinese win in this MU.

This game was played on Mongolia (great chinese map as I got 6 yaks), I didn't make any obvious mistakes (aging with the porcelain tower would have been a gamble and wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game) and I got totally crushed.

Eco musk/huss is one way to win this MU as brit, VC ff or agressive musk/huss win as well.

@deleted_user @Garja

[Aykin Haraka]

or just semi ff cav, and lb mosk huss ( mainly mosk hussss )

[[Armag] diarouga]

or just semi ff cav, and lb mosk huss ( mainly mosk hussss )

Yea. Just do anything as Brit as long as you don't let China go industrial without getting damaged.

[Hazza54321]

semi cav seems like the best way to lose

[[Armag] diarouga]

semi cav seems like the best way to lose

True. You don't get a big eco advantage (if any), you give China some momentum and the huss aren't going to achieve much so VC sounds better.
I'm pretty sure huss semi still works though because Brit is just so strong in that MU.

[deleted_user0]

well to begin with, it's mongolia, if you only get 6 yaks as china, you didn't do that well. His opening was slow and greedy. I think you can 8 bow 9 pike 1 tower rax fb and then age. I think you can just age with tower tbh, and send 8 bow, even if you choose to send 700c first. You can 700c 8 bow. or even 700c 700w 8 bow. Brits was quite slow. You took a good fight in your base, but you're out of hunts after that, tho u have 3 fattened yaks. Then you made rookie mistake to push out before 12m. You always need to wait for 12m imo, as then u have 1 card, 400xport and 1 wonder army coming all at about same time, and if you age with acadamy, also your crow comes around 12m. if you had done that, i think you wouldve been ok.

[[Armag] diarouga]

1) Should get more than 6 yaks but it doesn't matter since more wouldn't have time to fatten.

2) Going 8bows/9pikes is super greedy because you have to commit to that early (chop 200w and first colonial shipment) and if he holds it's game over, so it's definitely not an option.

3) Probably should have waited 12min but tbh it doesn't change much. He'd get more units because he has a crazy eco and win. I don't think that going VC and rax right when he aged was any good. With 3v first he would have got a lot more units to pressure me.

4) Anyway, I think that I played better overall. I defended quite well but Brit just gets too much stuff out.

5) Tower is irrelevant, as I got 4 fattented yaks (ie 2000f), which means that I get more resources than if I went tower on a no livestock map.

[deleted_user0]

well, you can disagree if you want, but i think you made quite a few crucial mistakes that game. i agree that its brits favored, also on that map cuz you barely have any hunt. but that game isn't really indicative of the mu, because the way miggo played it wasnt optimal. had you made a few different choices, i'm sure you couldve won that game. so to say that brits can just do whatever is really wrong imo. brits has to do a few very specific things right, if they do, they win 100% but otherwise china has quite a fair chance.

[Garja]

I mean you just failed in the micro, which is all it matters with China.
You lose the 3 pikes and 2 chokus from the wonder at 7 min vs 10 random musks walking into ur base, then you have enough mass at about 9 min and trade decent, then you just straight up lose the game at 10 min because you show army with 11 changdao in queue and with poor micro. The game would go exactly the other way if you simply microed properly.

If anyone played it better it was him, just because he did his build properly (like you) but also got the most out of his army. Actually he got way more than he should with those huss. You just bleeded anticav here and there whole game.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's easy to blame the micro but I was outmassed and outboom'd by a suboptimal build order, which is what matters.

[deleted_user0]

your bo was also suboptimal, so I don't know if it matters so much. going 8 skir age up vs brits is just really risky and usually not needed unless they go double rax agression.

[Garja]

I think the BO was good. If I see any fb from any civ I just go skirm wonder and try to push as soon as I feel it's safe.
It is jsut the micro that is indeed to blame. You only have one army with China (well not really ahah, China remass is still incredible for an FF) and you have to get the most out of it. And honestly when your army composition straight up counter the opponent one (lbows barely matter there) then it's definetely your fault. You say you were outmassed but it's simply not true. You were slightly outmassed at 10 min when you baited the huss but 1) you could have still traded well if you kited better (instead you were lazy with kiting and then anticav started attacking musks) and 2) you had 11 changdao otw which would have buffed your army way more than any 5 huss coming from him.

[Aykin Haraka]

semi ff cav is exactly what I do, even in tourney, and I never lost

but shh it's my strat

[Mitoe]

This MU is not as bad for China as everyone seems to think, IMO.

Can someone please explain to me exactly what the builds were this game as I don’t have access to a computer with AoE3 installed until late tomorrow? I’ll give you an imaginary cookie.

[Hazza54321]

vc musk huss as brit with 5min age up.
Academy ff from china.

[Kaiserklein]

For the record, I never claimed China should beat Brits. I'm not good enough with either of these civs (especially China obviously) to have a clear opinion on the match up. The only thing I'm claiming is that "Brits are China's worst match up" is bullshit.

I've actually played this mu many times vs Mitoe's china, and even though my brits aren't the best, it was clear to me it doesn't look hopeless for China. Plus Mitoe himself saying the same, and I'd tend to trust him as he's arguably the best China player atm. I think that mu being hopeless is just an old misconception, because the China meta has changed a lot. Same as "russia is the worst civ" (and no, that didn't change only because of the rusket buff...) or "pure cav beats china" and so on. I mean, people also used to say France destroys China, or that hussars beat ruskets, and look where we are now...

[[Armag] diarouga]

France used to destroy China with pure cuir before the chinese players started to take a TP, so it's not that wrong. It was true back then.

Iro and Brit are by far the hardest MUs for China, not sure how anyone can deny that, maybe Sioux.

[Kaiserklein]

Lol, pure cuir doesn't destroy China, this is a myth. I feel like we're not playing the same game sometimes.

I'd really like to see you vs Mitoe BO7 in that MU. Maybe have it be the next MU of the month?

[[Armag] diarouga]

Lol, pure cuir doesn't destroy China, this is a myth. I feel like we're not playing the same game sometimes.

I'd really like to see you vs Mitoe BO7 in that MU. Maybe have it be the next MU of the month?

You overestimate China without a TP. The civ is just bad.

[Garja]

France used to destroy China with pure cuir before the chinese players started to take a TP, so it's not that wrong. It was true back then.

Iro and Brit are by far the hardest MUs for China, not sure how anyone can deny that, maybe Sioux.

This is so bs. Just go watch old recs of bsop china (I think there is one vs raphael on hudson where he goes pure cuir). As Kaiser said it's a myth. China just has so much mass and so many interference units that cuirs always struggle to connect well.
Iro is hard mostly for the rush. Semif FFs (even with stagecoach) are actually ok for China.
I don't think Brits is one of the hardest.
Hardest China MUs are probably Ger and Sioux but even those are 50-50 to me. Maybe India with some sort of fortress play. Maybe Dutch (I used to play Dutch as sort of China counter). Maybe even Japan now with new builds (but China still feels easier to play). Maybe Otto with either rush into jan abus stagecoach or just some weird FF/FI play.
But in general I can't think of a MU where China is at a big disavantage.

[Hazza54321]

cuirs do well post manchu and anticav shipments, otherwise they suck

[[Armag] diarouga]

France used to destroy China with pure cuir before the chinese players started to take a TP, so it's not that wrong. It was true back then.

Iro and Brit are by far the hardest MUs for China, not sure how anyone can deny that, maybe Sioux.

This is so bs. Just go watch old recs of bsop china (I think there is one vs raphael on hudson where he goes pure cuir). As Kaiser said it's a myth. China just has so much mass and so many interference units that cuirs always struggle to connect well.
Iro is hard mostly for the rush. Semif FFs (even with stagecoach) are actually ok for China.
I don't think Brits is one of the hardest.
Hardest China MUs are probably Ger and Sioux but even those are 50-50 to me. Maybe India with some sort of fortress play. Maybe Dutch (I used to play Dutch as sort of China counter). Maybe even Japan now with new builds (but China still feels easier to play). Maybe Otto with either rush into jan abus stagecoach or just some weird FF/FI play.
But in general I can't think of a MU where China is at a big disavantage.

bsop actually used to go 100% cuir in that MU lol.
Anyway, Brit is by far one of the hardest, and you're just showing that you have no clue about China because you don't play the civ.
Germany and Sioux are tough, but definitely not easier than Brit.
India, Dutch and Japan should be China favoured, same with Otto (assuming perfect play though).

[Garja]

Brit one of the hardest is just one of your beliefs because you overrate Brits and because you probably struggle using superior units, just like this game showed. I mean, of course if you don't realize that in this game you were fine, then you're going to say Brits is hard.

[Mitoe]

vc musk huss as brit with 5min age up.
Academy ff from china.

Was hoping for more specifics. Did rouga use porcelain or palace to age 2? He used Porcelain a lot recently which I feel is just bad in age 2.

Also pure cuir vs China is terrible lol

[Hazza54321]

Yes