[EP] poisson (spain) vs Princeofkabul (iro)

[chronique]

This game is not particulary worth too watch, but what sort of things can i do for counter a simple rush?

[deleted_user]

not playing spain could be a good step to start with

[deleted_user0]

you can either lame wh travois with dogs or do semi with mm pop to hold and age behind

[Hazza54321]

@princeofkabul he called you simple.
As spain its incredibly hard to hold myself and somppu played this mu in a bo7 in the monociv tourney if you want more insight on the MU. In alot of cases i had to semi ff rather than ff, or cut vills to ff with tower on top of tc and having a good mm + 4 huss + 7 rod timing. Trick is gathering for mm asap as soon as you start aging. May have to hide a vill or two. Cm is useless as it still 2 shots tomas. Also laming the travois with 5 dogs can be good to force the wh in a terrible position like somp said

[chronique]

Hide vill is the first things you need too learn if you want play spain :p . I have trie semi in an other game and i die in a same way ^^. Spain looks like more bad in this patch juste because all other civ get more value about balance map (maybe i am wrong, not expert on this patch).

[gamevideo113]

Yeah i think you're right. Spain doesn't get a substantial benefit from the balanced maps as far as i can tell.

[Garja]

Spain also get more value as the FF is smoother and it's easier to defend aggression. Also EP maps have more treasures so the age1 dog advantage is amplified.

[chronique]

Why the ff is easier to defend? When I see 25 mousket in my base at 7 min, i have no idea what can i do ep or not.

[[Armag] diarouga]

ff is better imo. mm/4huss/7rods with a 5 lancer shipment should hold.

[chronique]

I have found no rec and from my experience on RE with spain, that's not working at all.

[[Armag] diarouga]

On RE you can't beat Iro.

[chronique]

I don't speak vs iro specificly, i have no idea how counter all HI timing (otto india iro etc...).

[princeofcarthage]

Ye you dont beat otto iro india

[[Armag] diarouga]

You can beat Otto/India imo.
Some people even argue that spain>Otto, 700c/CM ff should beat the jan rush. India is harder but with a proper defense and a good micro you can probably win although it's India favoured.

[dansil92]

Spain has a general weakness to HI timings in colonial (xbow probs) but you can always train your own musks with tc fire and minutemen. Its not great tho

[princeofcarthage]

You can beat Otto/India imo.
Some people even argue that spain>Otto, 700c/CM ff should beat the jan rush. India is harder but with a proper defense and a good micro you can probably win although it's India favoured.

I mean if you just do bwinner build otto will have 30 jans in base before spain is even age 3 and spain won't have resources for cm

[[Armag] diarouga]

You can beat Otto/India imo.
Some people even argue that spain>Otto, 700c/CM ff should beat the jan rush. India is harder but with a proper defense and a good micro you can probably win although it's India favoured.

I mean if you just do bwinner build otto will have 30 jans in base before spain is even age 3 and spain won't have resources for cm

Wrong. If you wait to get 30 jans before pushing, he'll get the resources for CM. If you push with your first jans, you'll lose them to TC fire.


Ask bwinner, he thinks this MU is Spain favoured (although it's probably slightly Otto favoured).

[chronique]

There are some rec where spain beat some good HI rush? because i can't bealive what i'am reading, double jan looks design for killing ff.

[[Armag] diarouga]

I think I beat jan rush a lot of time with Spain. I don't know if I have recs tho. Ask botto I guess.

[Astaroth]

I think top players often underestimate how hard it is for average/newer players to hold HI timings. I think with out playing, good micro, experience, sneaking a vill to eg build houses or a rax and maybe a well timed CM plus explorer snare, you can prolly defend them nicely.

But if you lack experience and or apm, it becomes very hard. You have a gazillion units in your base, lose all your houses and tower, can't gather. Then you trickle out units, maybe even clean a wave, but cna never get back on your feet due to the constant reinforcements.

[[Armag] diarouga]

It's hard for sure but not impossible.

[zoom]

Brb, buffing Spanish!

[chronique]

Not impossible is not a truly argument ^^. If you have a winrate of 10% that's mean "not impossible" but not fair at all.

[[Armag] diarouga]

Not impossible is not a truly argument ^^. If you have a winrate of 10% that's mean "not impossible" but not fair at all.

Well, Iro is the 2nd best EP civ and India probably top 4-5 while Spain is on the weaker side so these MUs are not balanced but I wouldn't say that Spain struggles more than the other weakest civs (Port/Aztec) in these MUs.
Against Otto I'd say that you have serious chances to win as Spain.

[onabudget]

At my lvl (PR 17) it seems doable to hold HI timings on RE (not couting iro ofc). Most players that go for HI timings at my lvl just lack skill so their timing will be off and their followup is very weak. I was hit by jan/abus this week when playing spain on gp. I knew what was coming because I scouted a forward rax and art foundry. I sent 700w first, built rax, stable and houses, queued 1 musk while macroing for age up and spent any excess food/coin I had before 700c hit the floor on queuing more muskets. By the time he walked in with 10 abus and 15 jans I was already aging and had 11 muskets. As is customary at my lvl he just right clicked TC so my vils could gather in the back unharmed. I poked in with muskets from time to time so he would stop sieging for short periods. I made sure to keep exactly 9 vils in my TC. I kept making musk whenever I had resources to do so during transition. Then I called MM so they popped at the same time as 4 huss from age up and cleaned up his entire army + some more jans and a 3 huss shipment that had arrived for him at that time. After I cleaned up his army he was just behind, it was obvious that he hadn't planned beyond his rush and I could pretty much do whatever I wanted. I'm not saying it's an easy win as I kinda won here because the other guy didn't play it well, but it's definitely doable at a lower lvl.