EP7 China

Australia Kawapasaka
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EP7 China

Post by Kawapasaka »

Some games showcasing the new China on a variety of random crate starts. Despite the new consistency, I am not sure if it is necessarily more balanced.
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Canada Mitoe
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by Mitoe »

#FixedCratesForAllCivs

Also what does "despite the new consistency" mean?
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Kawapasaka »

Mitoe wrote: Also what does "despite the new consistency" mean?
The consistency and "fairness" of China getting the same crates as its opponent.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Qosashvili93 »

Is not china on wood start even stronger than on ep6?
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Re: EP7 China

Post by jesus3 »

It's really more inconsistent, as intended. Possibly fairer, but that one OP start does also exist now.
A more important factor (according to several people I've asked) of the new China seems to be the ability to defend age 2 better due to elimination of composition issues. China aged incredibly fast already and the challenge until now was to age up while minimizing the damage taken in the process. Eliminate that and it becomes scarier, other civs just can't exploit that early composition weakness anymore.

Imo this is the crucial point to re-consider
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Garja »

I dont see any problem with it.
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by chronique »

I am agree with Mitoe (maybe he troll). This random stuff are so annoying and make the game unbalencable imo.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Mitoe wrote:#FixedCratesForAllCivs

Also what does "despite the new consistency" mean?
Wow, you're team fixed crates now ?
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by Mitoe »

[Armag] diarouga wrote:
Mitoe wrote:#FixedCratesForAllCivs

Also what does "despite the new consistency" mean?
Wow, you're team fixed crates now ?
I have been for the last year or more; Iā€™m surprised you didnā€™t notice, although I suppose I havenā€™t been super vocal about it in the way many others have been.

I was against it when it was first proposed because I felt it was going to remove some of the diversity from the game and make things feel repetitive. Eventually I realized itā€™s actually the opposite.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Hazza54321 »

Mitoes chest deep in minge wnd couldnt give a single fece about anything else you go girl @Mitoe
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Mitoe »

Hazza54321 wrote:Mitoes chest deep in minge wnd couldnt give a single fece about anything else you go girl @Mitoe
Wat
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Hazza54321 »

U heard me you fucking pile of duck feces
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Re: EP7 China

Post by zoom »

Kawapasaka wrote:Some games showcasing the new China on a variety of random crate starts. Despite the new consistency, I am not sure if it is necessarily more balanced.
Thank you for these games. I'll try to watch all of them, this weekend. In the mean time, please elaborate on the specific issues you see, and what you would suggest. While it's possible that giving the civilization dynamic ("random") crates has made it too strong or weak, overall, it is surely much more consistent (relative to other civilizations), now, and will be possible to balance by buffing or nerfing its starting conditions, accordingly.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by zoom »

Mitoe wrote:#FixedCratesForAllCivs

Also what does "despite the new consistency" mean?
You see, Chinese starting resources are now consistent with every other civilizations' starting resources, instead of Chinese effectively either being down 100f or down 100w, which I'm sure you understand constitutes a gigantic balance issue, on a different scale than perceived typical ones.

Did you play Chinese on EP7, yet?
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Re: EP7 China

Post by zoom »

jesus3 wrote:It's really more inconsistent, as intended. Possibly fairer, but that one OP start does also exist now.
A more important factor (according to several people I've asked) of the new China seems to be the ability to defend age 2 better due to elimination of composition issues. China aged incredibly fast already and the challenge until now was to age up while minimizing the damage taken in the process. Eliminate that and it becomes scarier, other civs just can't exploit that early composition weakness anymore.

Imo this is the crucial point to re-consider
100f+100w (presumably "that one OP start") isn't overpowered, because every other civilization always gets it at the same time. It is true that Chinese is stronger on this start, than before, since the civilization used not to benefit from it, while every other civilization did, which means Chinese used to underperform on the start.

Chinese aging "incredibly fast" doesn't make any sense, to me, considering Fortress Age wonder build-times, and how slow the civilization is to Colonial Age, compared to most others, in the first place. What do you mean?

Also, please elaborate on what Colonial Age "early composition weakness" doesn't exist anymore. You must be only talking about Mongolian Army (since Black Flag army isn't available before Fortress Age). An argument being a little specific helps it a lot, if it has any substance.

Regardless, I've been closely considering the implications of both banner-army changes, the entire time, and remain intent on addressing them, to the point of reverting them. I think determining whether they are inherently unbalanced takes more feedback, testing and time. I do plan on including a nerf to at least Black Flag army, with the next update, though.

The improved consistency is a matter of perspective and understanding. The point I've been trying to make refers to crate-starts varying consistently, between games, relative to the 13 other civilizations in the game. That is to say, Chinese's relative strength is now consistent, from one game to another. If players fail to understand that fact in the first place, it would explain why they might think starts are less consistentā€”which is true, in the other, more direct sense, which is not the relevant one as far as inter-civilization balance is concerned.

Based on these frequent misunderstandings, it seems that that many players don't understand how crate-starts work, in this gameā€”and by extension that I've failed to explain it. I'm unsure how much better I can explain it, than I have in this post (or this one), though.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by zoom »

Qosashvili93 wrote:Is not china on wood start even stronger than on ep6?
Disregarding banner-army changes and Brtish Allies nerf, on the 100f+100w start, Chinese is stronger than before (which is desirable, since Chinese was relatively weak on this start, where other civilizations practically got 100f more than Chinese), and on the 100w start, the civilization is the same as before, since this is the start where all civilizations got 100w, before.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by zoom »

chronique wrote:I am agree with Mitoe (maybe he troll). This random stuff are so annoying and make the game unbalencable imo.
It is true that fixed crates are, in theory, more balanced than dynamic ("random") ones. In practice, however, fixing the starting crates of 13 civilizations, would usher in a new era of ruined balance, for the foreseeable future. You know the way some demagogues claim that EP7 is ruining balance? Multiply their doomsday prophecies by ten, and make it last years.

Coupled with the change being so divisive and fundamental, that fact makes it irresponsible.

Also: Here's something that causes a lot more balance issues than all civilizations having consistent and dynamic ("random") crate-starts: Certain civilizations not following suit!
:chinese:
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by chronique »

Usualy, peape againt fix crates arg than that reduce the diversity, not the balance. In fact, becouse i have never play with fix crates and it's make no sence to me than more rdm mean more balance, i can't trust you :/.
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by Mr_Bramboy »

So ESOC made China's crates consistently inconsistent? This is the EP I know and love.
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by n0el »

Saying fixing crates would make the game less balanced is absolutely insane. If that is anyone's honest opinion, they shouldn't be anywhere close to any balance discussions.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by SoldieR »

He is absolutely correct that balance would change if we fixed crates. You would have to pick which crate start each civ gets, and that would change the balance of every single matchup. In time it could get balanced, and at that point be better overall balance then random crates, which he agrees with. However, that would take time.

In the long term, fixed crates would be more balanced.
In the short term, randomizing 1 civ creates quicker, closer balance.

If you say ger starts with 1 wood and 3 food, what does French start with? How does it change the MU balance? Does russia start with an extra food crate? How does that change ger vs Russia? How does that change russia vs fren?

(PS: ger with 300f 100w is still a tp start, so you're not getting away from tp start, unless you give 200f, 100w, 100c. Which is a shit start where you usually cant do either tp or market without idle time 17 vil age)
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Re: EP7 China

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Post by n0el »

That makes literally no sense. Right now all civs start with the same crates in a matchup. if you gave them all the same crate assignment (ie food/wood) then the balance wouldn't change at all.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by deleted_user »

Let players choose their random crate.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by Kaiserklein »

n0el wrote:That makes literally no sense. Right now all civs start with the same crates in a matchup. if you gave them all the same crate assignment (ie food/wood) then the balance wouldn't change at all.
Of course the balance would change. If you fix every civ to have a wood start for example, it would favour germany, brits, india, etc. If you fixed it to a coin start, it would favour dutch, and civs that can go for an early market. If you fix it to a food start, it favours civs with less early eco like iro, sioux, ports, otto...
So by fixing crates you're going to change the balance we've been working on for 7 patches. In that case it would have been much better to fix crates at the first iteration, and then balance around it.
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Re: EP7 China

Post by n0el »

That lack of balance exists already then. it has to since the starts are the same. That was the reasoning for changing china.
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