Bunch of French vs Dutch
Bunch of French vs Dutch
Title says it all. Only won one but they were nice games. It's just full-retard skirm/goon though.
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- [EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs sheckler[DU] - ESOC Manchuria.age3yrec
- (617.78 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
ESOC ManchuriaRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 7.1Length: 28 minutes -
- [EP7-1 SP] yoqpasa[DU] vs kami_ryu[FR] - ESOC Malaysia.age3yrec
- (412.55 KiB) Downloaded 62 times
ESOC MalaysiaRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 7.1Length: 13 minutes -
- [EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs yoqpasa[DU] - ESOC Mendocino.age3yrec
- (507.24 KiB) Downloaded 61 times
ESOC MendocinoRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 7.1Length: 21 minutes -
- [EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs yoqpasa[DU] - ESOC Arkansas.age3yrec
- (568.76 KiB) Downloaded 52 times
ESOC ArkansasRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 7.1Length: 19 minutes
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
This MU is only fun if you get 4tp stagecoach
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- ESOC Pro Team
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
sheck is an absolute beast in this mu
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
I think it's more complicated than just spamming skirm/goon.
As France, you want to get the TP line and damage Dutch a bit in colonial. That's a very important part of the MU, if you can get an edge in colonial (as Dutch or as France, although France is more likely to have a good colonial), you'll be in a good spot for the skirm/goon spam.
The way Dutch deals with the 2 falc timing is also very important.
As France, you want to get the TP line and damage Dutch a bit in colonial. That's a very important part of the MU, if you can get an edge in colonial (as Dutch or as France, although France is more likely to have a good colonial), you'll be in a good spot for the skirm/goon spam.
The way Dutch deals with the 2 falc timing is also very important.
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
Oh I send falcs almost every game but Dutch tended to deal with it pretty well. my micro vs scheckler was quite bad too.
I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
Aren't musk/huss timings into an age up pretty good as french in this mu?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
I got the same feeling when I lost that mu 3 times against you as france on no tp. I still don't know what i should try .iNcog wrote: I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
- Mr_Bramboy
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
France is favored in my opinion. The important part as France is not losing your two falcs for nothing. The only way Dutch deals with the 2 falcs shipment is by massing ruyters and sniping them. This tactic is, ironically, countered by cuirs. If you push with both falcs and cuirs, you can ram the cuirs in there while the ruyters try to come forward to snipe the falcs. Pushing with just falconets and skirm/goon is a mistake in most games unless there is a specific window you recognized.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
On no TP it's super Dutch favoured. I guess you can try to bow rush but it shouldn't work.Goujar wrote:I got the same feeling when I lost that mu 3 times against you as france on no tp. I still don't know what i should try .iNcog wrote: I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
Yea, that's what I'd do. Take the TP line while pressuring with musk/huss and age when you feel you can do that.Darwin_ wrote:Aren't musk/huss timings into an age up pretty good as french in this mu?
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
I have 2 VODs from my series with @yoqpasa
1 loss and 1 win, but we went 1 - 2 in his favor overall. These were nice games. I grumble about Dutch a lot in them but Yoq played better than me, straight up. Enjoy! @harcha you see I have started recording them this way too.
I also have a VOD of my loss vs Sheckler. I can upload that one too, since it was a nice game.
- harcha
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
@iNcog thanks. i think in this mu france has to hurt dutch in colonial (your timing is his 3rd/4th bank) to have decent setup for early fortress. in g2 you went too greedy (missed the opportunity to hurt dutch) and had a lot of idle/unspent resources after that. also the small things he was doing with his military ensured that his skirm ruyt wins your skirm goon.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
Yeah. It seems that from your post and diarouga's, a good musk/hussar timing is necessary to harass the Dutch in colonial. I guess I need to incorporate that into the play instead of going for full greed. Super interesting to discover the intricacies of match-ups. It's fun to play one match-up over and over.harcha wrote:@iNcog thanks. i think in this mu france has to hurt dutch in colonial (your timing is his 3rd/4th bank) to have decent setup for early fortress. in g2 you went too greedy (missed the opportunity to hurt dutch) and had a lot of idle/unspent resources after that. also the small things he was doing with his military ensured that his skirm ruyt wins your skirm goon.
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- Gendarme
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
I have some thoughts about this match up from mostly a Dutch POV
If French does a no TP musk huss I'm happy. I think it's easy to counter that build order with 700w 8 pikes and starting skirms. It just counters that BO in so many ways.
If French does a TP huss semi FF I feel reasonably comfortable. I think that there isn't much reason for you to linger around in age 2 too long. I'd personally try to age up pretty quickly without losing your hussars. Early age 3 can be difficult with falcs and cuirs, but if you manage to stabilize you're in a nice spot. It's a bit micro dependent though. I am always unsure whether 1000w is worth it. I feel like I tend to die when I try to send it.
If French tries to take stagecoach I tend to be unsure what to do about it. I've tried stealing a TP, but that really hurts your build order. I think it might be best to just try to age quickly and then steal at least one TP.
If French does a no TP musk huss I'm happy. I think it's easy to counter that build order with 700w 8 pikes and starting skirms. It just counters that BO in so many ways.
If French does a TP huss semi FF I feel reasonably comfortable. I think that there isn't much reason for you to linger around in age 2 too long. I'd personally try to age up pretty quickly without losing your hussars. Early age 3 can be difficult with falcs and cuirs, but if you manage to stabilize you're in a nice spot. It's a bit micro dependent though. I am always unsure whether 1000w is worth it. I feel like I tend to die when I try to send it.
If French tries to take stagecoach I tend to be unsure what to do about it. I've tried stealing a TP, but that really hurts your build order. I think it might be best to just try to age quickly and then steal at least one TP.
- Challenger_Marco
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
The problem as dutch is vs 2 falcs from fre if you can take them about in decent trade then dutch has wonRefluxSemantic wrote:I have some thoughts about this match up from mostly a Dutch POV
If French does a no TP musk huss I'm happy. I think it's easy to counter that build order with 700w 8 pikes and starting skirms. It just counters that BO in so many ways.
If French does a TP huss semi FF I feel reasonably comfortable. I think that there isn't much reason for you to linger around in age 2 too long. I'd personally try to age up pretty quickly without losing your hussars. Early age 3 can be difficult with falcs and cuirs, but if you manage to stabilize you're in a nice spot. It's a bit micro dependent though. I am always unsure whether 1000w is worth it. I feel like I tend to die when I try to send it.
If French tries to take stagecoach I tend to be unsure what to do about it. I've tried stealing a TP, but that really hurts your build order. I think it might be best to just try to age quickly and then steal at least one TP.
- harcha
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
Not so, the thing is french eco is comparable to dutch eco. It is really a game of who can use his military advantages better, and falcs is not the only thing france has going.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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- Gendarme
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
The dutch eco is definitely a bit better. If the ecos were the same then France should destroy Dutch, because they have much better military and they are actually a bit faster.
- harcha
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Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch
This is why i didn't say "the same". And consider that winter tourney only has TP maps.RefluxSemantic wrote:The dutch eco is definitely a bit better. If the ecos were the same then France should destroy Dutch, because they have much better military and they are actually a bit faster.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
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