Bunch of French vs Dutch

France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by iNcog »

Title says it all. Only won one but they were nice games. It's just full-retard skirm/goon though.
Attachments
[EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs sheckler[DU] - ESOC Manchuria.age3yrec
(617.78 KiB) Downloaded 68 times
ESOC Manchuria
ESOC Manchuria
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 7.1
Length: 28 minutes
[EP7-1 SP] yoqpasa[DU] vs kami_ryu[FR] - ESOC Malaysia.age3yrec
(412.55 KiB) Downloaded 62 times
ESOC Malaysia
ESOC Malaysia
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 7.1
Length: 13 minutes
[EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs yoqpasa[DU] - ESOC Mendocino.age3yrec
(507.24 KiB) Downloaded 61 times
ESOC Mendocino
ESOC Mendocino
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 7.1
Length: 21 minutes
[EP7-1 SP] kami_ryu[FR] vs yoqpasa[DU] - ESOC Arkansas.age3yrec
(568.76 KiB) Downloaded 52 times
ESOC Arkansas
ESOC Arkansas
Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
Version: ESOC Patch 7.1
Length: 19 minutes
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
European Union Scroogie
Lancer
Posts: 740
Joined: Dec 5, 2015
ESO: Scroogie
GameRanger ID: 10056919

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by Scroogie »

This MU is only fun if you get 4tp stagecoach :D
Me being slightly ahead vs H2O: Image
Australia Kawapasaka
ESOC Pro Team
Posts: 1116
Joined: Jan 25, 2019
Location: Wales (new, south)

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

  • Quote

Post by Kawapasaka »

sheck is an absolute beast in this mu
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

I think it's more complicated than just spamming skirm/goon.

As France, you want to get the TP line and damage Dutch a bit in colonial. That's a very important part of the MU, if you can get an edge in colonial (as Dutch or as France, although France is more likely to have a good colonial), you'll be in a good spot for the skirm/goon spam.
The way Dutch deals with the 2 falc timing is also very important.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by iNcog »

Oh I send falcs almost every game but Dutch tended to deal with it pretty well. my micro vs scheckler was quite bad too.

I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
United States of America Darwin_
Howdah
Posts: 1446
Joined: Nov 14, 2015
Location: Boston

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by Darwin_ »

Aren't musk/huss timings into an age up pretty good as french in this mu?
somppukunkku wrote:This is not a fucking discogame.
Mali Goujar
Crossbow
Posts: 10
Joined: Aug 1, 2019
ESO: Goujar

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by Goujar »

iNcog wrote: I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
I got the same feeling when I lost that mu 3 times against you as france on no tp. I still don't know what i should try :hmm: .
User avatar
Netherlands Mr_Bramboy
Retired Contributor
Donator 01
Posts: 8219
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: [VOC] Bram
Location: Amsterdam

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

  • Quote

Post by Mr_Bramboy »

France is favored in my opinion. The important part as France is not losing your two falcs for nothing. The only way Dutch deals with the 2 falcs shipment is by massing ruyters and sniping them. This tactic is, ironically, countered by cuirs. If you push with both falcs and cuirs, you can ram the cuirs in there while the ruyters try to come forward to snipe the falcs. Pushing with just falconets and skirm/goon is a mistake in most games unless there is a specific window you recognized.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Goujar wrote:
iNcog wrote: I found it hard to get an edge in colonial, or I would lose it after. tbh, it felt like Dutch had the advantage in longer fortress wars because their banks don't deplete mines like France does. hard match-up, probably for both sides. and tough games for me
I got the same feeling when I lost that mu 3 times against you as france on no tp. I still don't know what i should try :hmm: .
On no TP it's super Dutch favoured. I guess you can try to bow rush but it shouldn't work.
User avatar
France [Armag] diarouga
Ninja
NWC LAN Gold
Posts: 12710
Joined: Feb 26, 2015
ESO: diarouga
Location: France

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Darwin_ wrote:Aren't musk/huss timings into an age up pretty good as french in this mu?
Yea, that's what I'd do. Take the TP line while pressuring with musk/huss and age when you feel you can do that.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by iNcog »





I have 2 VODs from my series with @yoqpasa

1 loss and 1 win, but we went 1 - 2 in his favor overall. These were nice games. I grumble about Dutch a lot in them but Yoq played better than me, straight up. Enjoy! @harcha you see I have started recording them this way too.

I also have a VOD of my loss vs Sheckler. I can upload that one too, since it was a nice game.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
User avatar
Germany Rohbrot
Howdah
ECL Reigning Champs
Posts: 1789
Joined: Feb 23, 2020
ESO: Rohbrot

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by Rohbrot »

Oh nice some games to watch :-)
Spain pain train is real
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by harcha »

@iNcog thanks. i think in this mu france has to hurt dutch in colonial (your timing is his 3rd/4th bank) to have decent setup for early fortress. in g2 you went too greedy (missed the opportunity to hurt dutch) and had a lot of idle/unspent resources after that. also the small things he was doing with his military ensured that his skirm ruyt wins your skirm goon.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
France iNcog
Ninja
Posts: 13236
Joined: Mar 7, 2015

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by iNcog »

harcha wrote:@iNcog thanks. i think in this mu france has to hurt dutch in colonial (your timing is his 3rd/4th bank) to have decent setup for early fortress. in g2 you went too greedy (missed the opportunity to hurt dutch) and had a lot of idle/unspent resources after that. also the small things he was doing with his military ensured that his skirm ruyt wins your skirm goon.
Yeah. It seems that from your post and diarouga's, a good musk/hussar timing is necessary to harass the Dutch in colonial. I guess I need to incorporate that into the play instead of going for full greed. Super interesting to discover the intricacies of match-ups. It's fun to play one match-up over and over.
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/incog_aoe
Garja wrote: ↑
20 Mar 2020, 21:46
I just hope DE is not going to implement all of the EP changes. Right now it is a big clusterfuck.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by RefluxSemantic »

I have some thoughts about this match up from mostly a Dutch POV

If French does a no TP musk huss I'm happy. I think it's easy to counter that build order with 700w 8 pikes and starting skirms. It just counters that BO in so many ways.
If French does a TP huss semi FF I feel reasonably comfortable. I think that there isn't much reason for you to linger around in age 2 too long. I'd personally try to age up pretty quickly without losing your hussars. Early age 3 can be difficult with falcs and cuirs, but if you manage to stabilize you're in a nice spot. It's a bit micro dependent though. I am always unsure whether 1000w is worth it. I feel like I tend to die when I try to send it.
If French tries to take stagecoach I tend to be unsure what to do about it. I've tried stealing a TP, but that really hurts your build order. I think it might be best to just try to age quickly and then steal at least one TP.
User avatar
India Challenger_Marco
ESOC Media Team
Posts: 2689
Joined: Nov 23, 2015
ESO: challenger_marco

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by Challenger_Marco »

RefluxSemantic wrote:I have some thoughts about this match up from mostly a Dutch POV

If French does a no TP musk huss I'm happy. I think it's easy to counter that build order with 700w 8 pikes and starting skirms. It just counters that BO in so many ways.
If French does a TP huss semi FF I feel reasonably comfortable. I think that there isn't much reason for you to linger around in age 2 too long. I'd personally try to age up pretty quickly without losing your hussars. Early age 3 can be difficult with falcs and cuirs, but if you manage to stabilize you're in a nice spot. It's a bit micro dependent though. I am always unsure whether 1000w is worth it. I feel like I tend to die when I try to send it.
If French tries to take stagecoach I tend to be unsure what to do about it. I've tried stealing a TP, but that really hurts your build order. I think it might be best to just try to age quickly and then steal at least one TP.
The problem as dutch is vs 2 falcs from fre if you can take them about in decent trade then dutch has won
:nwc:
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by harcha »

Not so, the thing is french eco is comparable to dutch eco. It is really a game of who can use his military advantages better, and falcs is not the only thing france has going.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.
No Flag RefluxSemantic
Gendarme
Posts: 5996
Joined: Jun 4, 2019

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by RefluxSemantic »

The dutch eco is definitely a bit better. If the ecos were the same then France should destroy Dutch, because they have much better military and they are actually a bit faster.
User avatar
Latvia harcha
Gendarme
Posts: 5136
Joined: Jul 2, 2015
ESO: hatamoto_samurai

Re: Bunch of French vs Dutch

Post by harcha »

RefluxSemantic wrote:The dutch eco is definitely a bit better. If the ecos were the same then France should destroy Dutch, because they have much better military and they are actually a bit faster.
This is why i didn't say "the same". And consider that winter tourney only has TP maps.
POC wrote:Also I most likely know a whole lot more than you.
POC wrote:Also as an objective third party, and near 100% accuracy of giving correct information, I would say my opinions are more reliable than yours.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Which top 10 players do you wish to see listed?

All-time

Active last two weeks

Active last month

Supremacy

Treaty

Official

ESOC Patch

Treaty Patch

1v1 Elo

2v2 Elo

3v3 Elo

Power Rating

Which streams do you wish to see listed?

Twitch

Age of Empires III

Age of Empires IV