Case study against otto
Case study against otto
It has recently come to my attention that plenty of players are unsure about how to play against the mighty ottoman civilzation.
Luckily some players are aware of how impactful and instructive recorded games can be, in particular for lower levelled players, who might want to benefit from the experience of others.
Therefore i would like to share 4 games against otto, which were played today, showing what can be done against them with a variety of other civilizations.
Luckily some players are aware of how impactful and instructive recorded games can be, in particular for lower levelled players, who might want to benefit from the experience of others.
Therefore i would like to share 4 games against otto, which were played today, showing what can be done against them with a variety of other civilizations.
- Attachments
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- [EP9 SP] ageofkiller[OT] vs Jerimuno[SP] - ESOC Arizona.age3yrec
- (481.65 KiB) Downloaded 94 times
ESOC ArizonaRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 9Length: 10 minutes -
- [EP9 SP] ageofkiller[OT] vs Jerimuno[JP] - ESOC Colorado.age3yrec
- (404.41 KiB) Downloaded 86 times
ESOC ColoradoRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 9Length: 17 minutes -
- [EP9 SP] ageofkiller[OT] vs Jerimuno[FR] - ESOC High Plains.age3yrec
- (400.31 KiB) Downloaded 110 times
ESOC High PlainsRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 9Length: 10 minutes -
- [EP9 SP] ageofkiller[OT] vs Jerimuno[CH] - ESOC Pampas Sierras.age3yrec
- (428.54 KiB) Downloaded 97 times
ESOC Pampas SierrasRules: Supremacy (1v1)Version: ESOC Patch 9Length: 15 minutes
- chronique
- Advanced Player
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- Location: France
Re: Case study against otto
The last one maybe not necessary, otto no tp is not realy a problem.
- oxaloacetate
- Dragoon
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Re: Case study against otto
Will this work also against top players?
We watched the tragedy unfold
We did as we were told
We bought and sold
It was the greatest show on earth
We did as we were told
We bought and sold
It was the greatest show on earth
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- Ninja
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Re: Case study against otto
im new with otto but you played all mus great.
Gg
Gg
Re: Case study against otto
Ego post
Re: Case study against otto
Agree, for someone who never played otto its hard to get in roll with botto.deleted_user wrote:im new with otto but you played all mus great.
Gg
Spain pain train is real
Re: Case study against otto
Thank you for share this. With Spain normally i do not have problems...but with other civs sometimes I am very stuck.
Normally i use a lot of brits and for me is very difficult yo counter that. Any ideas?
Normally i use a lot of brits and for me is very difficult yo counter that. Any ideas?
Re: Case study against otto
Didn't watch the games yet, but I feel like Otto is a civ which does well vs many standard builds but which can struggle vs. specific counter strats and builds.
E.g. Spain vs otto is often considered otto favored, but I think if you "lame" the otto explorer with dogs to prevent more than one TP (he can build it with vills, but it hurts his eco a lot and takes long), it gets difficult for otto.
The otto revolt is similar. If you play standard-passive against it (make skirm/goon, stay in base), it can be hard to beat. But a strong counter build (e.g. turtle in base with musk+cannon OR timing push in age3 OR pressure aggressively with goons to prevent greedy revolt, then run around hunting huss) does really well vs it.
E.g. Spain vs otto is often considered otto favored, but I think if you "lame" the otto explorer with dogs to prevent more than one TP (he can build it with vills, but it hurts his eco a lot and takes long), it gets difficult for otto.
The otto revolt is similar. If you play standard-passive against it (make skirm/goon, stay in base), it can be hard to beat. But a strong counter build (e.g. turtle in base with musk+cannon OR timing push in age3 OR pressure aggressively with goons to prevent greedy revolt, then run around hunting huss) does really well vs it.
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- Pro Player
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Re: Case study against otto
Otto has counter plays to dogs like building tp with a vill and take the others in early colonial with an early 5 jansAstaroth wrote:Didn't watch the games yet, but I feel like Otto is a civ which does well vs many standard builds but which can struggle vs. specific counter strats and builds.
E.g. Spain vs otto is often considered otto favored, but I think if you "lame" the otto explorer with dogs to prevent more than one TP (he can build it with vills, but it hurts his eco a lot and takes long), it gets difficult for otto.
The otto revolt is similar. If you play standard-passive against it (make skirm/goon, stay in base), it can be hard to beat. But a strong counter build (e.g. turtle in base with musk+cannon OR timing push in age3 OR pressure aggressively with goons to prevent greedy revolt, then run around hunting huss) does really well vs it.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Case study against otto
Otto is a civ that can be countered by some civs. For instance China, Sioux, Spain, France, Germany and Iro to some extent do well against Otto. The big issue is that most of the other civs don't really have a solid way to beat Otto on stagecoach maps, and that's an issue considering how easy to play the civ is.Astaroth wrote:Didn't watch the games yet, but I feel like Otto is a civ which does well vs many standard builds but which can struggle vs. specific counter strats and builds.
E.g. Spain vs otto is often considered otto favored, but I think if you "lame" the otto explorer with dogs to prevent more than one TP (he can build it with vills, but it hurts his eco a lot and takes long), it gets difficult for otto.
The otto revolt is similar. If you play standard-passive against it (make skirm/goon, stay in base), it can be hard to beat. But a strong counter build (e.g. turtle in base with musk+cannon OR timing push in age3 OR pressure aggressively with goons to prevent greedy revolt, then run around hunting huss) does really well vs it.
Re: Case study against otto
@Hazza54321 Yeah, not saying it doesn't, but I still believe it makes it harder for otto than having 3-5 tps early age2 with stage on the way asap.
For otto, it means having to spend 1-2 vills building (which takes long and costs a lot of VS) and/or waiting until rax is built and 5 jans are trained. For spain, it just means 1-2 treasures less maybe and 1-2 dogs trained.
This can delay the whole otto build by like 1-2 minutes.
For otto, it means having to spend 1-2 vills building (which takes long and costs a lot of VS) and/or waiting until rax is built and 5 jans are trained. For spain, it just means 1-2 treasures less maybe and 1-2 dogs trained.
This can delay the whole otto build by like 1-2 minutes.
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Re: Case study against otto
Training 1-2 dogs also delays spain abit aswell. No way it delays otto by 2mins, its 1v building a tp in transition and then the rest with hero with 5-10 jans covering
Re: Case study against otto
Well, check when otto usually builds 3 tps and researches stagecoach. Compare two scenarios:
1. Otto builds TPs unhindered with explorer. This means probably building or starting to build 2-3 TPs (including starting TP), depending on MU, before reaching age2. In other words: otto will have finished 2 TPs before age2 and at least start a 3rd one.
2. Otto gets delayed, only being able to build 1 TP with explo at the start of the game. This means:
- spending 72 villager seconds building a 2nd TP with a vill, plus at least 30s walking time, meaning like 100 vs, meaning at least 50w gathered less for otto.
- this TP delayed by 50s (how much vills build slower than explo), resulting in loss of XP
- building another (3rd) TP with explorer only after: reaching age2 (prolly delays your starting time of building a TP by 20s or so at least), building a rax (like 20s), training 5 jans (like 35s), walking to a tp (depending on map, let's say 15s).
When going stagecoach, all of this can mean significant resource loss, because delaying your 3rd TP delays your potential 4th and 5th (depending on map). Not to mention the xp loss.
Obviously this math isn't exact and depends on the map, but clearly from the otto POV it is much better to
1. Have 3 TPs when hitting age2 or shortly after, with stagecoach and TP4 built soon after.
2. Than have 1-2 TP when hitting age2, spending villager walking time on it, and getting TP3 at the earliest like 1,5 minutes after hitting age2 when jans are out.
1. Otto builds TPs unhindered with explorer. This means probably building or starting to build 2-3 TPs (including starting TP), depending on MU, before reaching age2. In other words: otto will have finished 2 TPs before age2 and at least start a 3rd one.
2. Otto gets delayed, only being able to build 1 TP with explo at the start of the game. This means:
- spending 72 villager seconds building a 2nd TP with a vill, plus at least 30s walking time, meaning like 100 vs, meaning at least 50w gathered less for otto.
- this TP delayed by 50s (how much vills build slower than explo), resulting in loss of XP
- building another (3rd) TP with explorer only after: reaching age2 (prolly delays your starting time of building a TP by 20s or so at least), building a rax (like 20s), training 5 jans (like 35s), walking to a tp (depending on map, let's say 15s).
When going stagecoach, all of this can mean significant resource loss, because delaying your 3rd TP delays your potential 4th and 5th (depending on map). Not to mention the xp loss.
Obviously this math isn't exact and depends on the map, but clearly from the otto POV it is much better to
1. Have 3 TPs when hitting age2 or shortly after, with stagecoach and TP4 built soon after.
2. Than have 1-2 TP when hitting age2, spending villager walking time on it, and getting TP3 at the earliest like 1,5 minutes after hitting age2 when jans are out.
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Re: Case study against otto
You build your 3rd tp from 400w anyway, so it only forces you to build your 2nd TP with a vil, which isn't too bad as spain probably ages a vil later to fortress if they train a couple dogs.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: Case study against otto
I guess, but even then 3rd TP is delayed a bit, no?Kaiserklein wrote:You build your 3rd tp from 400w anyway, so it only forces you to build your 2nd TP with a vil, which isn't too bad as spain probably ages a vil later to fortress if they train a couple dogs.
Compare
- build 3rd TP right after gathering 200w from age up with explorer who stands at TP socket
- to: (if Spain camps TP sockets with explo and dogs) gather 200w, build rax (~20s), train 5 jans (~34s), walk to TP socket (5-20s), start building TP
It does probably slow down your 3rd TP and thus also your 4th TP by at least a minute.
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Re: Case study against otto
I mean there's a lot of factors, like how many TPs are on the line, how much hp your explo has, how many dogs he trained... You may be able to kite a dog for example, if you have enough hp left. You may also be able to use your fb vils to help vs dogs (they have a multiplier vs pets at range, and a high melee attack). Depending on treasures, otto might be fast enough to start dropping the second TP before spain even really clicked up, in which case they can't train dogs yet. Spain can also be busy building their own TP later on. And as otto is up before spain, there's a window where their explo has +25% hp and attack, so it's less vulnerable. etc
On the other hand, otto might have already lost their explo to the dog when building the first TP anyway. Or they might not even try to take more than 1 or 2 TPs.
In short, trying to do maths on this is pointless because it depends too much on the age 1, on the map, and on what players are trying to do. So yeah sometimes it's worth training dogs, sometimes it's not, it's situational.
On the other hand, otto might have already lost their explo to the dog when building the first TP anyway. Or they might not even try to take more than 1 or 2 TPs.
In short, trying to do maths on this is pointless because it depends too much on the age 1, on the map, and on what players are trying to do. So yeah sometimes it's worth training dogs, sometimes it's not, it's situational.
LoOk_tOm wrote:I have something in particular against Kaisar (GERMANY NOOB mercenary LAMME FOREVER) And the other people (noobs) like suck kaiser ... just this ..
Re: Case study against otto
Yeah, fair points. I just feel at least in some games, the dependence of otto on getting TPs ASAP in while aging or early age2 is a weakness that Spain can abuse.
And I feel players are increasingly doing it.
And I feel players are increasingly doing it.
- Jets
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Re: Case study against otto
off topic here, may I ask where are those games hosted/streamed? I only follow ESOCTV and lecastete on twitch. Thanks
Re: Case study against otto
I did not stream these games. Besides the ones you listed you should probably check out twirch.tv/kaiserklein or iamturk etc. A list of people streaming can be seen on the left side of every esoc page @Jets
Re: Case study against otto
If somebody absolutely insists on using Otto, I just mirror it.
KINGofOsmane wrote:If Elo is down what are we even fighting for
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