How to play against russia with french

France Kaiserklein
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Kaiserklein »

Garja wrote:with a tp in transition it's almost granted u don't get 5 out.

Not really, because it means you had market in age 1, so you get more res in. Having age 1 TP and building market in transition means you get your upgrades late, so your batch is weaker. You do get your shipments faster of course, but that doesn't help your first batch of huss.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Garja »

Kaiserklein wrote:Not really, because it means you had market in age 1, so you get more res in. Having age 1 TP and building market in transition means you get your upgrades late, so your batch is weaker. You do get your shipments faster of course, but that doesn't help your first batch of huss.

In all of this you got more res in crates at the start with 200w tho. And with market start you drop TP before placer mines anyway so the difference is not big (also you will have all cdbs on wood for the TP so hunting dogs is useless during that).
In general if your build includes a TP then it's hard to get 5 out with any pressure. There is a higher chance to get treasures that help with marketing rather than TPing (food+gold vs wood treasures only) and as said 200w > 100g or 100f. So TP start is slightly more efficient. On top of that, more shipments of course.
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Sweden Gendarme
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Gendarme »

You can still go market with wood start. Maybe that is worth considering.
Pay more attention to detail.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Garja »

Ye actually that's rly the most efficient start by far and the one that let appreciate how much eco Fre have early on compared to any other civ. The inclusion of TP at any point drains more resources from the classic French builds and you can't rly strectch it too much when vsing aggressive civs. Just need to accept that you will get less units out and more shipments and play around that. Sometimes with good treasures you still get 5 huss out but I'd say it's the minority of cases.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:strel + coss do. The reason why start cav vs russia is because of the all in rush. With rax start you just get raped

No, cdb do the job.
As I explained, it's not easy and you might be slightly behind (not even sure since the Russian guy has to skip vills and a TP). However, if he plays std (ie 80% of the time), you get really ahead thanks to your build order, while huss start is a struggle (you're going to have 4 huss vs musks/5coss, then he can push with 10 musks/9 coss and the hold is goona be tough, and then you still have to age, survive, and win in age 3).
I'd say that huss start vs std play is 50/50 on the EP.

It's just matter of point of view, but I'd rather be 60/40 80% of the time and 40/60 20% of the time than 50/50 all the time.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by momuuu »

Nuance: starting musketeers vs russia is a metagame call. Because of years and years of France starting cav against russia, russia generally doesn't go cossack/strelet openings anymore and instead go for musketeer/cossack. While you don't definitively lose when going musks against a cossack/strelet opening, you would have been better off opening with hussars. However, the opposite is true too.

Diarouga's call is that in today's meta people will almost always open musk/cossack and thus he advises to play the meta by starting musketeers, which seems like a valid call right now. The thought process is that with CDB you will be able to survive against strelet/cossack decently and still be in an okay spot (although I could see that generally being a ~40% winrate strategy). Depending on the map though, maybe the chances are still pretty good against strelet/cossack all in rushes as you have good hunts. With fewer hunts, the match up in general becomes harder and winning might depend entirely on making the right call.

Obviously this is a meta play; if musk openings as France were the norm, then Russia would always open strelet/cossack and thus you would be better off starting with hussars. Generally, I feel like the hussar opening is a bit more adaptable and gives the best winrate against 50% strelet 50% musk openings from russia, however I also feel like russia goes for a musk opening 80% of the time. Thus, right now it is probably best to start musketeers.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Garja »

Ye it's a meta thing, but a bad one I'd say. Russia main and first to address strenght is strelets and early mass. it is simply the easiest yet effective thing to do unless opponent defends well, which implies starting huss.
Because of how straightfoward is the win with an all in rush vs not proper defense the opponent is forced to blindly start cav. Now, it is true that on ESOC maps you have everything together under TC so with good garrison micro and mm you can defend more than what used to be. However, a proper executed all in rush is cracking your defense anyway in a way or another. Might be a grinded out game if you defend perfectly but the simple fact that you're on the backfoot the whole game it should warn you that it's not the proper start.
On a side note, but related I guess, without huss start you're not touching Russia eco at all. This gives russia lot of freedom. For example they can more easily semi FF or even just straight FF. Like Russia can go 17v strelets FF with 1 or 2 TPs (about 8 min) and because you won't have huss anytime soon it's totally safe. You don't want to be on par in ages and eco with Russia.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by DjinnOfSorrow »

Russia is op lol. Really idk I do not think as France I've faced Russia atleast lately. As Russia I notice most french players are drastically unprepared. Closest may have been full tower spam that slowed me down but his eco stayed starved so going to fort and just hitting with opris quickly polished him off.

But I also prefer to have strelet/musk/cossack out in moderate numbers instead of a huge mass of any particular unit, atleast for the first strike.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by macacoalbino »

What happened with the “just huss semi and win vs everything” france? Was it just the 5 extra food that killed it? Maybe goons RR as well?
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by gibson »

well you can still do that vs russia if you have good minuteman pop aand possibly ship xbow and tank well with vils but musk semi is probably safer.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by HUMMAN »

macacoalbino wrote:What happened with the “just huss semi and win vs everything” france? Was it just the 5 extra food that killed it? Maybe goons RR as well?

actually on RE since there are low hunts France is harder than EP imo.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Kaiserklein »

macacoalbino wrote:What happened with the “just huss semi and win vs everything” france? Was it just the 5 extra food that killed it? Maybe goons RR as well?

France still shits on russia. The goon nerf does hurt them, but well, as long as you can safely reach fortress you're gonna be fine, even with slightly weaker goons. The 5 food makes France very slightly slower overall, but not enough to let russia beat them imo.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Garja wrote:Ye it's a meta thing, but a bad one I'd say. Russia main and first to address strenght is strelets and early mass. it is simply the easiest yet effective thing to do unless opponent defends well, which implies starting huss.
Because of how straightfoward is the win with an all in rush vs not proper defense the opponent is forced to blindly start cav. Now, it is true that on ESOC maps you have everything together under TC so with good garrison micro and mm you can defend more than what used to be. However, a proper executed all in rush is cracking your defense anyway in a way or another. Might be a grinded out game if you defend perfectly but the simple fact that you're on the backfoot the whole game it should warn you that it's not the proper start.
On a side note, but related I guess, without huss start you're not touching Russia eco at all. This gives russia lot of freedom. For example they can more easily semi FF or even just straight FF. Like Russia can go 17v strelets FF with 1 or 2 TPs (about 8 min) and because you won't have huss anytime soon it's totally safe. You don't want to be on par in ages and eco with Russia.

How is it a bad meta call? It gives you a better winrate, so I'd say it's a good call.
Also I think you overestimate the strengh of coss/strel rush. From experience, I can tell that it is not impossible at all to hold it. It's awkward because you'll get iddled a lot, but in the end you will just hold without losing a single cdb, and the game is not over at all.

Your side note is irrelevant because Russia ff is hopeless vs France semi ff, regardless of the build order.
In addition, I've never seen Russia going ff except on Texas. On Siberia, most players just go 5coss/700w/700c and they have 5coss/5musks to defend the raids.
Finally, you can raid with musks if your opponent has no units.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Hazza54321 »

dont see how u hold 23 strel 5 coss with 10muskets
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by Aykin Haraka »

8 bow in box walls, micro with the +2 range bow have
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by deleted_user0 »

snare with your hero, call mm and kill fb vills. too bad MMA fighter is not snaring anymore
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by deleted_user »

It's disgusting ESOC ever thought indigenous life was for subservient service only -- like punching people with guns and swords.
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Re: How to play against russia with french

Post by [Armag] diarouga »

Hazza54321 wrote:dont see how u hold 23 strel 5 coss with 10muskets

With vills+mm+10musks+hero snaring you hold.
It's not a dream situation of course, and you're going to struggle (you might need 8 bows) but in the end you'll hold and have a playable game.
Against std play however, you're just super ahead.

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