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United States of America evilcheadar
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25 Dec 2018, 06:30

nagi criminally underrated
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Canada dansil92
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25 Dec 2018, 13:36

evilcheadar wrote:nagi criminally underrated

Nagi are really good in team games tbh
United States of America Sub0Winters
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08 Jan 2019, 00:59

it is too bad that Otto dont have an unlimited spahi card like the indians have uremi card. Shame to have such a cool specialized unit that you only get 3-4 of a game. :(
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No Flag ovi12
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08 Jan 2019, 01:48

Mitoe wrote:Meteor Hammers aren't really all that strong on their own in big fights. It's the combination with the Iron flails that makes China's cavalry so strong. Most of the time if you have a cavalry mass larger than 15-20 units, half of your units get trapped pathing around behind the frontline units to fight, so only like 60-70% of your cavalry is doing damage. With Iron Flail + Meteors your damage output is significantly greater en masse compared to other cavalry.

+1 this is extremely simple and huge.
last time i cryed was because i stood on Lego
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United States of America Papist
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08 Jan 2019, 07:54

DracoWolfgand wrote:Atonement is VITAL to get if you are playing as the Japanese.


Lol
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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11 Jan 2019, 02:25

... Okay, seriously, I just dont get it. Am I the only one who likes to have the option to train a anti-cavalry unit that is fast enough to chase cavalry down or to run away if things get dim, and that, unlike the Yabusame, can actually hit decently hard?
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11 Jan 2019, 03:04

DracoWolfgand wrote:... Okay, seriously, I just dont get it. Am I the only one who likes to have the option to train a anti-cavalry unit that is fast enough to chase cavalry down or to run away if things get dim, and that, unlike the Yabusame, can actually hit decently hard?


Japan generally is supposed to be dictating the pace of the game and their vills are very hard to catch because they are safe on cherry orchards. You dont really need a ranged cav. If worse comes to worse you can just set the golden Pavillion to the speed and chase with ashigaru

Yabusame are only good vs the AI when it just spams like 25 cannons. They would actually be a good unit if they weren't paper thin and way too expensive The dps is low but the range is insanely good and they are fast
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United States of America Papist
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11 Jan 2019, 06:05

DracoWolfgand wrote:... Okay, seriously, I just dont get it. Am I the only one who likes to have the option to train a anti-cavalry unit that is fast enough to chase cavalry down or to run away if things get dim, and that, unlike the Yabusame, can actually hit decently hard?


We already discussed this is another thread. Yojimbo are terrible for their cost in both resources and population, and require a card to train. Ashi are good for their cost, do not require a card to train, and have many upgrades available (ashi combat, vet ashi, close combat, Golden Pavillion upgrades). There is no situation in which an inefficient mercenary ranged cavalry unit would be preferable to that.
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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Poland pecelot
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11 Jan 2019, 10:13

what does it have to do with heavy cavalry ranking? :?:
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No Flag DracoWolfgand
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11 Jan 2019, 11:52

I still just dont think it is fair to compare a heavy infantry unit to a light cavalry unit, when both are more suitable to different roles and circunstances. And, on the case of the Yojimbo, the comparisson becomes even weirder because the Yojimbo-Itself-Plays very differently from other light cavalry units. The Ashigaru, no matter how boosted it is, is never going to get as fast as a Yojimbo( Whose own speed is actually mediocre for light cavalry standarts ), and it also lacks multipliers at range... Although, the Yojimbo ranged attack is also below average for light cavalry standarts, if you factor in its high cost... Anyway, I just feel that comparing Musketeers to Dragoons or Ashigaru to Yojimbos is kind of like comparing apples to bananas. There are certain tactics that one can do that just wouldnt be viable as the other. ... I dont know what else to say, really.
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11 Jan 2019, 12:13

DracoWolfgand wrote:I just feel that comparing Musketeers to Dragoons or Ashigaru to Yojimbos is kind of like comparing apples to bananas. There are certain tactics that one can do that just wouldnt be viable as the other.

Well, what else would you compare to Yojimbos?
In the end, you can only make a unit comparison between the different units you can built. Since only Japanese can build Yojimbos, the only units you can compare it to boil down to 1) ashigaru, 2) Samurai, 3) Yabusame and 4) Naginata.

Yojimbos are worse than pretty much all of them in their corresponding jobs, given their high cost (especially pop!), their lack of upgrades and the card which you have to send for them. Yojimbos become a trash tier unit from age IV on.
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11 Jan 2019, 12:31

Also, not being able to do dragoon or cavalry archer tactics doesnt mean you autolose. They are different ways to win, and Japan wins games quietly without yojimbos. Yojimbos are far from being VITAL when playing Japanese. Actually, it is really hard to win a game against a player of similar skill level if you play Japan and send Atonement.
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11 Jan 2019, 12:41

duckzilla wrote:
DracoWolfgand wrote:I just feel that comparing Musketeers to Dragoons or Ashigaru to Yojimbos is kind of like comparing apples to bananas. There are certain tactics that one can do that just wouldnt be viable as the other.

Well, what else would you compare to Yojimbos?
In the end, you can only make a unit comparison between the different units you can build. Since only Japanese can build Yojimbos, the only units you can compare it to boil down to 1) ashigaru, 2) Samurai, 3) Yabusame and 4) Naginata.

Yojimbos are worse than pretty much all of them in their corresponding jobs, given their high cost (especially pop!), their lack of upgrades and the card which you have to send for them. Yojimbos become a trash tier unit from age IV on.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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11 Jan 2019, 12:42

duckzilla wrote:
DracoWolfgand wrote:I just feel that comparing Musketeers to Dragoons or Ashigaru to Yojimbos is kind of like comparing apples to bananas. There are certain tactics that one can do that just wouldnt be viable as the other.

Well, what else would you compare to Yojimbos?
In the end, you can only make a unit comparison between the different units you can built. Since only Japanese can build Yojimbos, the only units you can compare it to boil down to 1) ashigaru, 2) Samurai, 3) Yabusame and 4) Naginata.

Yojimbos are worse than pretty much all of them in their corresponding jobs, given their high cost (especially pop!), their lack of upgrades and the card which you have to send for them. Yojimbos become a trash tier unit from age IV on.


I... Have to disagree, -Especially-On the case of the Yabusame. As I said before, I consider Yabusame a laughable unit. The only role I can think of that it is at least decent at( Better then the Yojimbo, anyway ) is countering artillery, and even then other civilizations would have better options for that role. Also, I would guess that that neat 50% ranged resistance and astonishingly high range for a light cavalry unit makes it much less vulnerable to Skirmishers and the like, but still it is not like your first thought upon seeing light infantry would be "Send in the Yabusame!" The others become a bit more... Subjective, but, here are my two cents( I may or may not be saiyng the painfully obvious here, though: )

A: Comparing Yojimbo to Naginata would definitively be the weirdest comparisson of then all, as, although the Yojimbo can sort of be used as a "pseudo-heavy cavalry unit"( As its area attack and high meele armor makes just charging into the opponent a viable tactic, or even a good one depending on who you are up against ), they are meant to handle completely different kinds of units and situations. Namelly,the Naginata is a specialized counter to light infantry, which is pretty much-The-Hard counter for Yojimbos...

B: Yojimbo to Samurai: That would actually be a intersting comparisson, as both of then are anti-cavalry units with a very powerfull, area meele attack. It could be, in some ways, seen as like the Dragoon/Musketeer comparisson... Minus the Samurai lacks a ranged attack at all. I would say the presence of a ranged attack and higher speed does gives the Yojimbo more versatility, though, at its preferred role( Basically acting a landmowner that rapidly cuts its way through pratically any meele unit ), the Samurai is-Certainly-Better. Now, I do personally feel the Samurai suffers from the problem of being a bit "overspecialized"... Almost always, it is only going to be usefull against heavy cavalry units and maybe, occasionally, some heavy infantry units, where the Yojimbo is speed and ranged attack lets it at least do some damage even to its counters before diyng. But, at its-Intended-Role, it really is just that good. In fact, it is one of the few infantry units that can put on a proper fight against the Spanish Lancers.

C: Yojimbo to Ashigaru: My first reflex would be to compare this last one to the "Dragoon/Musketeer" comparisson, in that, if my current priority is speed and general harassing, I would prioritize Yojimbos, and that, if my current priority is general meatshields and cannon fodder, I would use Ashigaru. But... That is not as point and blank as it seems. The Yojimbo, kind of, can be used as a frontline unit, after all. But on another hand, the fact the Ashigaru ranged attack can become frankly huge with the proper boosts applied also essentially makes up for the lack of ranged multipliers by just how much damage it deals to pretty much anything, making it more viable then the Musketeer as a back row unit... Though its greatest bulk and higher multipliers with Close Combat also makes it really good at countering heavy cavalry on the front row. Maybe not, Samurai kind of good, but still... Ugh. I got off on a tangent. Anyway, as I said, Ashigarus are my go-to heavy infantry unit and general meatshield, but if I feel I just need something a bit speedier, I am likely to use Yojimbos. That is how I have been using then.
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11 Jan 2019, 13:43

Well, you can disagree of course. This is all just my personal opinion how I would play the civ.

The Yabusame might be a crappy unit, but 1) you can build it without sending a card, 2) you can afford 2 Yabusame for the price of 1 Yojimbo (both pop/res-wise) and 3) Yabusame are upgradeable to guard/imperial units. I don't say that you should spam Yabusame everywhere. But that does not make Yojimbos magically better.

Ashigaru are ultimately the unit of choice, since they are so much cheaper than Yojimbo and better than Yabusame. You can afford roughly 4 Ashigarus for the cost of 1 Yojimbo. It is difficult to think of a situation where 40 Ashigarus are worse than 10 Yojimbo.

What kind of situation do you have in mind, where Yojimbos can actually benefit? What do you mean with the need of something speedier?
The very strong melee attack makes the unit especially awkward. You just don't know when to keep it firing from distance and when to close in. It even becomes more micro-intense to make use of it. Considering that the units main job is to kill cavalry and its melee resistance, I would never use the option to do ranged dmg. Their melee performance against cavalry is just far better, no matter if the enemy cavalry is melee or ranged cav itself.
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11 Jan 2019, 14:23

I think if you really would prefer to use Yojimbo, just put the mercenary shipment card in your deck? I have it in my japan deck. They are a good unit it is just a shame you cant just train them from the stable by default. I mean Yabusame are expensive but no where near a Yojimbo
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11 Jan 2019, 15:00

Yojimbos are amazing, it's just that they cost a lot, require a card and have counterparts at least on par.
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11 Jan 2019, 15:18

pecelot wrote:Yojimbos are amazing, it's just that they cost a lot, require a card and have counterparts at least on par.


^exactly

Also you might as well build a monastary anyways and see if black riders or manchu are available.
Or even comanchero since you will have the pop as japan early on
No Flag DracoWolfgand
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11 Jan 2019, 15:35

duckzilla wrote:Well, you can disagree of course. This is all just my personal opinion how I would play the civ.

The Yabusame might be a crappy unit, but 1) you can build it without sending a card, 2) you can afford 2 Yabusame for the price of 1 Yojimbo (both pop/res-wise) and 3) Yabusame are upgradeable to guard/imperial units. I don't say that you should spam Yabusame everywhere. But that does not make Yojimbos magically better.

Ashigaru are ultimately the unit of choice, since they are so much cheaper than Yojimbo and better than Yabusame. You can afford roughly 4 Ashigarus for the cost of 1 Yojimbo. It is difficult to think of a situation where 40 Ashigarus are worse than 10 Yojimbo.

What kind of situation do you have in mind, where Yojimbos can actually benefit? What do you mean with the need of something speedier?
The very strong melee attack makes the unit especially awkward. You just don't know when to keep it firing from distance and when to close in. It even becomes more micro-intense to make use of it. Considering that the units main job is to kill cavalry and its melee resistance, I would never use the option to do ranged dmg. Their melee performance against cavalry is just far better, no matter if the enemy cavalry is melee or ranged cav itself.


Well, the presence of a ranged attack and reasonably high speed does gives the Yojimbo at least the-Option-Of using hit and run against units that they just couldnt afford to just charge into meele combat against, such as Samurai and Doppelsoldners AND... Hm. hmmmmm... Halberdiers, arguably?

Okay, I will give you this: Yojimbos ARE a micro-intensive as shit unit :p. But I am not sure if I would say that makes then "bad". Honestly, even I am still fully figuring out how to use then. I used to be a lot more conservative with how I used then then I used to be before getting into these forums, generally favouring using their ranged mode more becase, instinctively, I just always felt like charging into meele mode would be too risky against most units, but now I am a bit more "daring" :p. Still, honestly, I dont know how to explain it better. Yojimbos are just all-around solid units for hit-and-run tactics, or if your opponent is triyng to use then theirselves. It is always convenient to have a unit around that can both counter cavalry-And-Chase then down if they try to escape, in my opinion, and I still think they are better at that role then at least the Yabusame( Though it is... Not exactly bragging material. ). It is not the kind of unit one would base their whole army around, but I still find myself sending the Atonement card because I just feel it is good to have the option to train a light cavalry unit that doesnt completely suck.

Note: Never really sat down to compare Yojimbo with-Other-Mercenary cavalry archers. I do really like Black Riders, and I think they share some traits with the Yojimbo due to their meat and meele resistance, but the Yojimbo doesnt have any "exact" counterpart on this game in my eyes.
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11 Jan 2019, 20:22

I compared Yojimbo to Ashi because they fulfill the same purpose - countering cav. It doesn't make sense to compare them to Yabusame because Yabusame are designed to counter artillery, not cavalry (though their multiplier against cav is an added perk).

Ashi are strong, available without a card, and have a ton of upgrades. Their extra speed (even more with the Golden Pavillion) makes them good at raiding and trapping enemy troops. Expensive, inefficient ranged cavalry that are only available with a card can't measure up to that.

Edit: they're not bad because they're micro intensive, they're bad because their stats are bad for their cost. Most mercs share this problem actually, which is why people don't make them very often
My first post, circa March 2015 :blush:
Papist wrote:@frycookofdoom. WTF are you talking about? There is no need for AoE to become a StarCraft rip-off. I sincerly doubt a historical game would attract the science fiction crowd anyways.
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Poland pecelot
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11 Jan 2019, 20:38

Yojimbos deal splash melee damage, on par with their ranged attack :!:
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Germany duckzilla
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11 Jan 2019, 21:25

We could also compare Yojimbo to Ronin. Both are anticav, both are only available if you send a card. Both cost 400c and 4pop. Both have 540hp.

The only differences are speed and dmg. While Yojimbo is faster, Ronin does 58 melee splash dmg (*3 vs cav) as well as 120 siege while Yojimbo does 35 melee splash dmg (*2 vs cav). Additionally, Yojimbo actually have a rate of fire of 2.0 while Ronin has 1.5.

To me, the far better stats of Ronin make up for the lack of speed. Especially against cav, Ronin do 170 splash dmg against Yojimbos 70 splash dmg.
"To counter the pike-boom, you must become the pike-boom." - Karl V. (HRE)
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Poland pecelot
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12 Jan 2019, 01:40

to be fair, I'd choose yojimbos all their long just for the mobility and ability to deal range damage, it's really a clash of the worst unit type in the game versus the best (and upgraded)
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12 Jan 2019, 10:35

I disagree. Ronins are better in small numbers, you can pretty much always find a solution for them to engage enemy units, either by snaring, hiding, popping, trapping... also their siege damage is outstanding.
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Poland pecelot
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12 Jan 2019, 12:08

the way I see it they are focused on the second they enter the enemy LOS

Yojimbo can be mistaken for Yabusame :hehe:
Le lion ne s'associe pas avec le cafard ! :food: :pop:

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