So I'm trying Japan for basically the first time and, well
[spoiler=spoiler][/spoiler]
Anyway, I have some questions
1) The most awkward thing I find is fitting in a market and which upgrades to prioritise. I generally build one with 600w and just spam out whatever upgrades I can afford. It feels very sloppy compared to the clean discovery-transition French market order that I'm used to, especially with all the extra upgrades. Is there a certain shrine pop you should generally reach before building a market?
2) Effective unit composition vs China - This is something I also found difficult as France, but it's even worse for my Japan. They have skirms, redcoats and cav in your face so fast. Flaming arrows feel kinda impotent against the sheer mass they have by the time you've followed up and sent them.
3) How to deal with a big artillery push. Most common example I guess would be dutch making a bunch of falcs and ruyters and slamming them into your base. Once again the flaming arrow shipment seems rather inadequate.
4) When to switch off port consulate - Typically I'll wait until I've built at least 15 shrines. On a water map I'll often just get the fishing boats then switch to Japs immediately. On land I'll wait for 1 Xbow shipment then also switch straight to Japs. Is this optimal, and is Spain/Dutch ever worth consideration?
5) Good timing to break a FB - for example vs Russia, Brits or French (on no tp) after they've done some early damage and are now just sitting back and burning every shrine. Any recommendations for a basic shipment order before pushing out? At a point just before having to ship the cherry orchards, or longer to wait for the shrine boom to pay off?
6) When is Ashi-Nagi better than Ashi-Yumi? And what ratios are typically optimal for the two compositions?
7) How many Ashi is the most efficient for a raiding group?
8) How to punish a TP boom? This is a bit of a vague question but I'm fine with vague advice for it
Questions about Japan
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- ESOC Pro Team
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Re: Questions about Japan
1) Generally you should add the market before you age instead of a shrine, and grab at least the first 2 food upgrades and Civil Servants (the 50 50 50 upgrade) before you start training units, unless under pressure.
2) CBA to answer, too complicated.
3) Train more flaming arrows--alternatively brute force it / surround / etc. There aren't many great ways to deal with cannons as Japan.
P.S. Alternatively you can troll with Ranged Cavalry Caracole from the Dutch consulate and Yabusame. (WAIT JAPAN DOESN'T GET THIS UPGRADE WTF?)
4) In general you wait until you get the 7 Basteiros then switch to Japan, but depending on what your opponent is doing you may want to stick around longer. Against very aggressive civs you can also consider switching off of Portuguese consulate before you even hit age 2 and going for Japanese consulate so you can train some clubs/shinobi to help defend and then grab the military rickshaw afterwards. It takes 60 seconds to cancel your alliance and 120 seconds to age up (with no vills on wonder), so use that to guesstimate when you should begin switching your consulate. Dutch consulate is viable in two situations, primarily when your opponent is turtling really hard / water booming / etc, or else when it's super lategame. Early or late the bank can be nice (takes 5 minutes to pay off compared to training units though), and lategame the Arsenal and Church upgrades are very good if you can afford them. In general though you will never have the opportunity to use Dutch consulate. Spanish consulate is never viable.
5) This is a really complicated question to answer and will change virtually every game. The simplest answer is to try to do it once you have a well balanced unit composition, and hopefully some upgrades.
6) Also a pretty complicated question. Sadly I just don't have the time to answer these questions adequately at the moment.
7) Depends on how many upgrades you have, but in general around 7 - 8.
8) Either try to go for an early-ish timing (consider skipping a vill shipment), or just add in more eco yourself. More shrines, market upgrades, fishing boats, etc. If you suspect your opponent might go for stagecoach you should try to take at least 1 TP for yourself in transition to Colonial--ideally one that would be awkward for him to siege.
2) CBA to answer, too complicated.
3) Train more flaming arrows--alternatively brute force it / surround / etc. There aren't many great ways to deal with cannons as Japan.
P.S. Alternatively you can troll with Ranged Cavalry Caracole from the Dutch consulate and Yabusame. (WAIT JAPAN DOESN'T GET THIS UPGRADE WTF?)
4) In general you wait until you get the 7 Basteiros then switch to Japan, but depending on what your opponent is doing you may want to stick around longer. Against very aggressive civs you can also consider switching off of Portuguese consulate before you even hit age 2 and going for Japanese consulate so you can train some clubs/shinobi to help defend and then grab the military rickshaw afterwards. It takes 60 seconds to cancel your alliance and 120 seconds to age up (with no vills on wonder), so use that to guesstimate when you should begin switching your consulate. Dutch consulate is viable in two situations, primarily when your opponent is turtling really hard / water booming / etc, or else when it's super lategame. Early or late the bank can be nice (takes 5 minutes to pay off compared to training units though), and lategame the Arsenal and Church upgrades are very good if you can afford them. In general though you will never have the opportunity to use Dutch consulate. Spanish consulate is never viable.
5) This is a really complicated question to answer and will change virtually every game. The simplest answer is to try to do it once you have a well balanced unit composition, and hopefully some upgrades.
6) Also a pretty complicated question. Sadly I just don't have the time to answer these questions adequately at the moment.
7) Depends on how many upgrades you have, but in general around 7 - 8.
8) Either try to go for an early-ish timing (consider skipping a vill shipment), or just add in more eco yourself. More shrines, market upgrades, fishing boats, etc. If you suspect your opponent might go for stagecoach you should try to take at least 1 TP for yourself in transition to Colonial--ideally one that would be awkward for him to siege.
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Re: Questions about Japan
Mitoe wrote: CBA to answer, too complicated.
That's definitely how it feels lol. Really appreciate the answers - just one more thing: are you assuming a Kami start for things like the market in transition? I'm not sure how standard this is anymore but it's all that I've been opening with so far.
- princeofcarthage
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Re: Questions about Japan
2 vills, dont send kami, kami is useful in team where you have time to boom, not in 1v1
Fine line to something great is a strange change.
- [Armag] diarouga
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Re: Questions about Japan
1) Usually I add the market once I reach the second age. It's not really worth to do so before, because the first food upgrade will cost you 150 resources and getting 2 shrines is definitely better.
2) I guess the easiest way (although it's not the most effective) is to go yumi/ashi, and add naginatas later. The flaming arrows are very situational in this MU, sometimes you will need them to hold, and sometimes you're just going to waste them. You can skip this shipment most of the time.
Another easy way is to go for a lot of yumis behind a wall and boom hard so that you can replace your shrines.
3) If he only has the 2 falc shipment, 2 arrows will be enough to kill them. If he makes a lot of artillery and culvs, you'll need yabusame. They're not super great but I think that they're underrated, they're not that bad. Thus, against a Dutch player who goes heavy on artillery, I'd recommand the yumi/yabusame composition, and add naginatas if he doesn't have enough ruyers.
4) It depends. If your opponent is killing your shrines (in which case you'll need to replace them), it's ok to stay on Port consulate for a while. Likewise, if you want to ff/fi, it's probably better to stay on Port consulate. Once you have 20 safe shrines though, you should switch to Japan. All in all, I'd say that it depends on your playstyle, if you're defensive like kynesie, you can stay on Port consulate for 20 min. If you want to timing in colonial, you'll need the Jap consulate however.
5) It's a matter of playstyle, but as Japan you shouldn't really push out of your base (and your walls). Most of the time, I'd go to fortress instead of going for a timing (especially against Russia). Other than that it's situational. If you think your opponent is aging, you should timing his fb, or if he's out of position sieging your shrines.
6) With yumis/ashis you'll have the range advantage and that's a great defensive advantage. Thus, I'd say that you need to go ashi/yumi when you want to defend (vs Iro/Aztec/Otto/India etc). You should only consider going ashi/nagi if you think you'll have time to mass (against semi ff civs), and even then it's situational.
It's quite effective vs Germany/Russia, and it can work against France/Dutch/China.
8) As Mitoe said, try to take one TP, and be agressive. Against TP booms, ashi/nagi is usually a good composition, you can siege the TPs with your ashis (and run if needed) while your nagi harass his vills.
2) I guess the easiest way (although it's not the most effective) is to go yumi/ashi, and add naginatas later. The flaming arrows are very situational in this MU, sometimes you will need them to hold, and sometimes you're just going to waste them. You can skip this shipment most of the time.
Another easy way is to go for a lot of yumis behind a wall and boom hard so that you can replace your shrines.
3) If he only has the 2 falc shipment, 2 arrows will be enough to kill them. If he makes a lot of artillery and culvs, you'll need yabusame. They're not super great but I think that they're underrated, they're not that bad. Thus, against a Dutch player who goes heavy on artillery, I'd recommand the yumi/yabusame composition, and add naginatas if he doesn't have enough ruyers.
4) It depends. If your opponent is killing your shrines (in which case you'll need to replace them), it's ok to stay on Port consulate for a while. Likewise, if you want to ff/fi, it's probably better to stay on Port consulate. Once you have 20 safe shrines though, you should switch to Japan. All in all, I'd say that it depends on your playstyle, if you're defensive like kynesie, you can stay on Port consulate for 20 min. If you want to timing in colonial, you'll need the Jap consulate however.
5) It's a matter of playstyle, but as Japan you shouldn't really push out of your base (and your walls). Most of the time, I'd go to fortress instead of going for a timing (especially against Russia). Other than that it's situational. If you think your opponent is aging, you should timing his fb, or if he's out of position sieging your shrines.
6) With yumis/ashis you'll have the range advantage and that's a great defensive advantage. Thus, I'd say that you need to go ashi/yumi when you want to defend (vs Iro/Aztec/Otto/India etc). You should only consider going ashi/nagi if you think you'll have time to mass (against semi ff civs), and even then it's situational.
It's quite effective vs Germany/Russia, and it can work against France/Dutch/China.
8) As Mitoe said, try to take one TP, and be agressive. Against TP booms, ashi/nagi is usually a good composition, you can siege the TPs with your ashis (and run if needed) while your nagi harass his vills.
Re: Questions about Japan
naginata are quite strong, but you'll need some eco to mass them (they're more expensive than hussar, and you may need 30% HP shipment too). so going ashi+yumi, then switch into nagi+ashi may be better against china's early timing.
Re: Questions about Japan
You can always ship yabusame rather than train them. Also naginata with the 30% hp card will Stand up to a lot of ruyter fire so can tank pretty effectively.
Flaming arrows are pretty trash. They do well vs low hp units like skirms but high hp units can shrug off a few volleys. I mean a vet grenadier takes two hits to kill from a flaming arrow.... generally if you are facing large amounts of artillery as japan you need to go cav heavy, yabusame and nagi
Flaming arrows are pretty trash. They do well vs low hp units like skirms but high hp units can shrug off a few volleys. I mean a vet grenadier takes two hits to kill from a flaming arrow.... generally if you are facing large amounts of artillery as japan you need to go cav heavy, yabusame and nagi
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