Brit v. Japan

[Papist]

This is a challenging MU for me; I was wondering if anyone had any tips on how to play it.

Typically I make a barracks and stable with my 700w, and open with 5 cav/5 musk (I siege the nearest shrine with the musk and snare any units he sends with my cav). I follow up by massing musk, huss, and longbows. Things typically go well into the mid-game - I often catch and destroy his entire army while suffering minimal casualties.

However, Japan always seems to have more units and eco than I do, no matter how many shrines I burn or troops I kill. In my most recent game I killed his entire army 3 times, yet he still won (he aged, so I rushed into his base and killed almost 30 units only for a ton of yumi to magically appear and kill me (?!)).

With that in mind, I would appreciate any advice you can give. I want to make sure I am not going about playing this MU in the wrong way.

[blackwidow]

As a Japan player, before I started doing weird nagi semi ff's. I typically lost to fast longbow near my base looking to tickle my vills a bit. While at the same time pikes siege shrines.
Basically just siege shrines while trying to put some pressure on, get some huss in the mix later on aswell. I feel like musks do everything longbow/pike does but worse, also they're expensive compared to the low wood cost units that are properly doing their job: Pikes for shrines/nagi, lb for the rest.

[KINGofOsmane]

musk huss is bad

[pecelot]

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=1323
also @deleted_user4

[deleted_user]

3v, 700w, 600w, 700c

Age 500f, open 1 rax, make 10 pike from it. Siege shrines. With 700w add 2nd rax, start making 10 lbow at a time. No more pike. But keep those pikes alive. Add stable before 700c comes in, maybe even collect 80c before hand to queue one if you're op. Go lbow/huss. Wreck.

[__Uhlan__]

3v, 700w, 600w, 700c

Age 500f, open 1 rax, make 10 pike from it. Siege shrines. With 700w add 2nd rax, start making 10 lbow at a time. No more pike. But keep those pikes alive. Add stable before 700c comes in, maybe even collect 80c before hand to queue one if you're op. Go lbow/huss. Wreck.

this.^one thing tho just make sure you get st/gang saw dont worry abt placer mines. After 700c, do 5v or 600c and make more hus. You should never make a musket v japan.

[Hazza54321]

700w 600w 5v adapt full lb pike and mix huss

[greatscythe11]

3v, 700w, 600w, 700c

Age 500f, open 1 rax, make 10 pike from it. Siege shrines. With 700w add 2nd rax, start making 10 lbow at a time. No more pike. But keep those pikes alive. Add stable before 700c comes in, maybe even collect 80c before hand to queue one if you're op. Go lbow/huss. Wreck.

Is a third rax viable past the stable and maybe 10 min mark?Bowpike is cheap and needs the numbers.It seems like for a big eco like brit the number of outlets can be a limiting criteria for massing.Even to react to 10 Ashi raids for example, you can get 15 lb easy(plus 5 hussar maybe?) if your fighting in his base.Also pikes have high casualty rate and need more reinforcement than bows.

[deleted_user0]

its possible, but its usually probably better to add a stable.

[fei123456]

i prefer huss/musk in this mu. naginata ashi yumi>>>hussar longbow anyway.
the key is to balance military and eco. this is a hard mu for brit, especially on big maps.

[fei123456]

You should never make a musket v japan.

why no musket? japan don't have skirms in colo. and longbow hussar lose badly to naginata ashi daimyo. brit musk has 2 upgrades too.

[Kaiserklein]

After your lb pike start, just go heavy on huss because huss beat nagis and ashis are a poor anti cav. Can probs also mix a few musketeers to block, but not many

[fei123456]

ashi has high RANGE damage so they're actually good anti-cav units.
that's also why tomahawk are bad.

[Kaiserklein]

They don't even have high range damage, it's lower than euro musks damage per cost. Also range damage against cav doesn't matter so much because with HI + HC vs RI + HC you want to bring musketeers in melee mode to get the huss killed asap since they're the only cover for lbs.

[Garja]

musk huss loses to pure musks or even just ashi+yumi which is the most comfortable combo to make from japan. Musk huss is an open field combo. Vs japan you want stuff that can rush their base (massable, hard counter, long range) because in the long run you lose no matter what combo.

[Gendarme]

ashi has high RANGE damage so they're actually good anti-cav units.
that's also why tomahawk are bad.

Tomahawks are pretty good anticav. They are bad at everything else.

[fei123456]

musk huss loses to pure musks or even just ashi+yumi which is the most comfortable combo to make from japan. Musk huss is an open field combo. Vs japan you want stuff that can rush their base (massable, hard counter, long range) because in the long run you lose no matter what combo.

but some other players (good players tho) says that brit should just go vc, build 200 pop manor houses in this MU I don't know what i exactly should do now

[deleted_user]

VC is maybe viable if you're adamant about sieging shrines off the map too. But why would you give jap time in any MU? You should always pressure them early because they seem to win almost every game after 14 min. And brits have such a strong early eco and fast age up while japs early game is lackluster at best.

[jesus3]

As I'm playing both civs frequently (although I'm nob) I'm pretty sure poking japan with lb non stop while piking down shrines as early as possible is the best way to play vs japan. You can always watch japans deck and if he sends unit shipments first you can also adapt easily with a close forward base. Ofc add hus when 700g arrives.
Also you can freely hunt as brit that way (except for ashi raids which you'll prolly see bc of all the manors)

e: now I saw that Callen already said all that. great. But I guess another time can't hurt

[Darwin_]

Generally you start pikes in this matchup and go straight to shrines, then get 20 lb, then alternate pike and lb according to their composition. Abuse the range advantage of your longbow when you push into his base. Focus a lot on killing their eco, as you need to really keep them from aging. Go for 700 coin after 600w or 5 vills and make a stable and a quick cav transition.

[fei123456]

Generally you start pikes in this matchup and go straight to shrines, then get 20 lb, then alternate pike and lb according to their composition. Abuse the range advantage of your longbow when you push into his base. Focus a lot on killing their eco, as you need to really keep them from aging. Go for 700 coin after 600w or 5 vills and make a stable and make a quick cav transition.

what should i do if japan has more yumi than your longbow? and 5 ashi around the map killing your pikes, raiding your vills

[Darwin_]

Generally you start pikes in this matchup and go straight to shrines, then get 20 lb, then alternate pike and lb according to their composition. Abuse the range advantage of your longbow when you push into his base. Focus a lot on killing their eco, as you need to really keep them from aging. Go for 700 coin after 600w or 5 vills and make a stable and make a quick cav transition.

what should i do if japan has more yumi than your longbow? and 5 ashi around the map killing your pikes, raiding your vills

They never really should have more yumi as brit eco and mass is almost always superior, but if they do just make more huss. If they have ashi in your base, pull some longbow back or send your cav to kill them (ashi arent that cost efficient vs. huss)

[momuuu]

Tbh if japan stabilizes Im pretty sure ashi nagi would be hard to deal with for brits. Few yumi mixed in and you can deal with anything really.

[Darwin_]

Tbh if japan stabilizes Im pretty sure ashi nagi would be hard to deal with for brits. Few yumi mixed in and you can deal with anything really.

Your probably right, but as a japan player, I can say that it is super hard to stabilize as Japan with enough eco to be competitive with brits. From my experience, even on quicksearch maps, this is easily Japan's hardest matchup, and probably one of the hardest matchups in the game.

[pecelot]

i prefer huss/musk in this mu. naginata ashi yumi>>>hussar longbow anyway.
the key is to balance military and eco. this is a hard mu for brit, especially on big maps.

Why would Japan have a 3-unit composition and Brits only 2-?

japan don't have skirms in colo

ex dee

ashi has high RANGE damage so they're actually good anti-cav units.
that's also why tomahawk are bad.

That means Ashi's damage is decreased due to heavy cav's RR. It also depends on which Tomahawks you have in mind — NAT ones deal melee damage at range. Regardless, War-Hut Tomahawks have 42 base damage vs cavalry compared to 35 of Ashigaru, while the former cost slightly less.

poking [...] with lb non stop

wat

what should i do if japan has more yumi than your longbow? and 5 ashi around the map killing your pikes, raiding your vills

Like almost every other post in this thread said, you should train hussars Try to bait the Yumis out of Japanese base and trap them with your cavalry.