China no-700c FF

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China no-700c FF

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Post by Mitoe »

As the title states, the goal of this strategy is to Fast Fortress without using the 700c shipment as China.

Whether or not this build is actually better than the standard build is up for debate, but it is without a doubt more versatile than the other build. Before actually going into the build, I'll provide some quick comparisons of this build to the standard build:

• Colonial Age Time: 40-45 seconds slower than standard
• Fortress Age Time: 0 - 30 seconds slower than standard, depending on treasures.

• The standard FF build requires 2 shipments: 700c and 700w, this build only requires 700w, freeing up an extra shipment for you, which if you choose to save until Fortress is worth ~300 resources more than the 700c shipment.

• Since you put 0 vills on the wonder to Colonial with this build compared to the standard build, you have an extra 4 villagers gathering resources during transition to Colonial, netting you ~200c over the standard build. You arguably lose out on some resources from the Summer Palace spawning your free units 40 seconds later, but you end up getting your first batch of units as you reach Fortress or very shortly before or after depending when you aged, which means you can instantly switch to a Fortress banner army without losing any resources, whereas with the standard build you may want to wait until you get your 2nd batch of Old Han or whichever Colonial banner army you had selected before switching to a Fortress army.


Deck
Image
This is the deck I would use in pretty much every game with this build. Depending on the matchup, however, you can swap around some cards. You can swap out 1000w and Territorial Army Combat for something like 4 Iron Flails and 13 Chu Ko Nu, or some of your Colonial cards for more Industrial cards. The only card that is strictly necessary in Colonial is 700w, the rest is situational/optional.


Age 1:
- Open either double village or village + TP. Either is fine, but personally I prefer village + TP unless there are some really good treasures or a lot of livestock.
- One major difference between this build and the standard build is that you never ever want to idle your TC if you don't plan on using 700c to age, regardless of how much it delays your age up. Your Colonial age time does not matter, only the time in which it takes you to gather 1200f and 1000c after aging to Colonial. Save your goat until Colonial as well.
- Send Northern Refugees.
- Age with the Summer Palace (400f), leave 0 vills on the wonder.

Transition:
- Switch 10-13 vills to gold, rest on food, new vills go to food.

The number of vills you put on gold depends on whether or not you plan to eat livestock when you hit Colonial. It will take you 120 seconds to reach Colonial from the time you place your wonder, and 12-13 vills will get you nearly 1000c by the time you age, especially with a couple of coin treasures. Use 10 vills if you don't plan on using your livestock to age, and don't feel that you need to reach Fortress super fast to survive.

Alternatively, you can also choose to chop 200w in transition for an extra building (either a TP, village (only if you're going to send 2 Colonial military shipments), or consulate) before mining gold. In matchups where you will have a lot of time, I like to start with a TP + Village and add a 2nd TP in transition.

Age 2:
- Send 700w.
- If you need to be up fast, begin positioning your livestock near groups of vills so that it will be easy to gather when you need it.
- Don't be afraid to call sentries if you need them to defend raids.
- Decide whether you want to send a 2nd Colonial shipment (300 Export, Military, 600w), or save it for Fortress.
- Age with the Porcelain Tower 90% of the time. Age with the Confucian Academy if you need the skirms in order to survive. Try to place your wonder in such a way that you can easily garrison vills from your wonder into your village AND Town Center.

Transition
Always put at least 4 vills on the wonder. The faster your Porcelain Tower goes up the faster it starts generating resources for you, and it will easily make up for the lost resources. With 8 on the wonder the Porcelain Tower will break even with the idle time, with 4 vills you will gain very slightly more resources, but it's almost negligible. If you're ever unsure of your situation or of how quickly you should be trying to reach Fortress, put 8 vills on the wonder.

- If you want to be greedy, you can delay your rax and use your 700w to rush all of your market upgrades. Otherwise, get a consulate, village, a rax, and a market, put 2-4 vills on wood, and start getting your market upgrades more slowly. Civil Servants (50f 50w 50c) and Imperial Bureaucracy (150f 150w 150c) should be your priority upgrades.
- Your priority in transition should be to get your consulate up. Intervention (9 musks with Brit consulate) can hold almost all Colonial timings by itself, but if you don't get your consulate up in time then you're out of luck. Put as many vills on it as you feel you need to get it up safely before you age.

Age 3:
- Send Intervention, 5 Meteor Hammers, 10 skirms, 1000w (to boom), or 1000c (for units or to age).
- Ensure your Porcelain Tower is on wood, or food/coin if you feel you really need the resources for units, but try to never leave it on the trickle of all resources.

From here just do normal China things, mass a deathball and attack move or go Industrial and abuse Old Han Reforms and Flying Crows.


Variations
Most of the variations of this build will come from what you choose to do with your extra shipment in Colonial, or which building you chose to build in transition to Colonial.

Image
600w Variation

To be honest, most of the time you're probably better off waiting until Fortress to send 1000w if you're thinking about sending this card after 700w, but sometimes if you're on a good stagecoach map like Patagonia, Yellow River, or any map where you get your own TP line, this card can be a good way to add some extra TPs into your build and get stagecoach on top of it, while also having your rax and consulate ready when you hit Fortress.

Image
Diplomatic Intrigue (300 Export) Variation

This card is probably the most fun variation of the build if you choose to send it. Listed below are the ways you may choose to use your different allies:

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British Consulate
Arguably the best of your consulate options, using 300 Export can allow you to time an extra 6 Redcoats with your Intervention card in Fortress or simply provide you with an extra ranged infantry shipment in Colonial if 8 Chu Ko Nu is not enough.

You can also get creative and use it for the petards to try to snipe your opponent's TC or wonders, or just rob them of some very necessary pop space or military buildings at an inopportune time. The 5 Spies you can get from the British aren't bad against Aztec either, if they're trying to FI.

Image
German Consulate
German consulate can be decent in some situations. With your 300 Export you can grab both the Food Trickle (1.50 food per second) and the Wood Trickle (1.25 wood per second) in early Fortress, and make use the cheaper banner armies for a while to build up your deathball. If you Fast Industrial you can grab the Coin Trickle (1.25 coin per second) as well. Keep in mind that you're playing the long game by allying yourself with Germany; it'll take a while before your trickles and cheaper banner armies are equal to a batch of Redcoats from the British consulate, and it costs more. Don't forget to switch to British consulate before you fight.

Image
French Consulate
I actually would not recommend using the French consulate very often, if ever. If you're sending 300 Export for crates, you might as well just send 600w or save the card for 1000w or 1000c instead, but sometimes 300 Export can be a good flex shipment, in the sense that you send it and use it for Redcoats if you need them, and otherwise use it for crates and grab the 500w and 500c crates to sling yourself to Industrial or something. I guess you can also troll with Grenadiers or something, if you want.

Image
Russian Consulate
More situational than the other allies, pretty much the only reason you would ally with the Russian consulate is for the Fort. It can actually be a pretty decent way of giving yourself some map control, controlling part of the water, or just turtling so you can reach Industrial. It also doubles as a shipment point and it saves you 200w on a rax. And it looks badass. Yay.

ImageImageImage
Military Shipments/Semi-FF Variation

Essentially all this is is sending a military shipment before OR after your 700w shipment in order to defend from early aggression or hold a timing. You could also just send 7 Steppe Riders for the sole person of raiding, but that's probably not the best option in most situations.

You may also choose to skip 700w altogether, build a 2nd Village in transition and just send 8 Chu Ko Nu and 9 Qiang Pikemen and try to use those to defend while you get up to Fortress. I don't know how viable this particular variation is; it might be better to just stay Colonial, and my success with it has varied from good to bad. There may be some matchups or situations where this is a decent option though. Just keep in mind you will need to chop A LOT of wood once you start aging to Fortress; you'll need a consulate and a village and a rax eventually.

You can also build a consulate in transition and send 8 Chu Ko Nu and 300 Export for 6 Redcoats, but you will house yourself. This does give you some flexibility in that it provides you with more ranged infantry and you have the option to switch to French Consulate and get 500w and 500c if they happen to not be as aggressive as you had anticipated, while also leaving you with a consulate ready when you hit Fortress so you can send Intervention.

Replays/VODs
Armada89 (Umeu) vs Kynesie, [Tibet] China vs Japan
Mitoe vs The_LastSamurai, [Colorado] China Mirror
Mitoe vs Snowww, [Iowa] China vs French
_H2O vs Garja, [Tibet] China Mirror
Mitoe vs Fourmaster (PrinceofKabul), [Bengal] China vs Japan
Mitoe vs Ramex12, [Tibet] China Mirror

Some of these recs are on EP and some are on RE, I'll label the ones I know but I'm unsure on some of them.
Attachments
[EP3-1 SP] BlackStar_OP[IN] vs Mitoe[CH] - ESOC Fertile Crescent.age3yrec
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Not the best example of the build but I think it's the only one where the double military shipment semi is attempted.
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Rules: Supremacy (1v1)
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RE
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Yukon
Yukon
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Yucatan
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ESOC Tibet
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Re: China no-700c FF

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All these colors is making me so, so happy.
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Re: China no-700c FF

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Post by Cometk »

guides like this are what make this game fun again
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by deleted_user0 »

It's a good build on livestock maps. Otherwise i'd say its probably too slow in most mus where china doesnt already wins with std build anyway.

I've also tried using 300export but ive come to the conclusion that its not worth it if you want to play fortress (with perhaps the exception of playing vs germany). Its a great card if you semi ff and plan to stay colonial a bit longer. And it can be a good card if you go for a greedy fi (you go german and get trickles). I've found that the value of the 6 musk is usually not as great as the value of like 10 skirms you might have shipped otherwise, but most importantly, it delays your next six musk by 30-45 sec. So i'm of the opinion now that its not a good card for fortress play. I would rather even ssnd 1000c instead and get mercs.

i think the build where you skip 700w, but get a 2nd village in transition (this only works if you had a tp start) and then send 2 or even 3 unit shipments in age2 is actually a really solid build. However, i usually don't skip 700w, i think you should have enough xp to just skip 700c. it's possible to skip 700w though, but im not sure it its worth it. i'm also not sure how well it works if you go for that delayed age up to colonial.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by momuuu »

This is cool mitoe, we need more write ups of somewhat standard Build orders. I found that within the mindset of china can only FF, this build order is somewhat more flexible against rushes.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by kami_ryu »

So it's a slower, but more value way of playing China? i'm going to try to learn this
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by Mitoe »

umeu wrote:It's a good build on livestock maps. Otherwise i'd say its probably too slow in most mus where china doesnt already wins with std build anyway.

I think you still want to save the livestock until later unless you really need them to age, but yeah it's debatable whether it's even better than the standard build in other situations. It's only 30-60 seconds slower than the standard build without livestock, which is probably still worth it in certain matchups.

I've also tried using 300export but ive come to the conclusion that its not worth it if you want to play fortress (with perhaps the exception of playing vs germany). Its a great card if you semi ff and plan to stay colonial a bit longer. And it can be a good card if you go for a greedy fi (you go german and get trickles). I've found that the value of the 6 musk is usually not as great as the value of like 10 skirms you might have shipped otherwise, but most importantly, it delays your next six musk by 30-45 sec. So i'm of the opinion now that its not a good card for fortress play. I would rather even ssnd 1000c instead and get mercs.

Yeah, in general using a 2nd shipment in Colonial is not worth it. They're all situational. I do like it for 6 musk sometimes just because I can time the batch of 6 musk with Intervention to hold an early timing in my base pretty easily, and I don't think it's actually a 30 second delay? The difference is about 25 export, does that actually take 30+ seconds to gather (I guess it's possible that it does)?
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by deleted_user »

Granted there's a skill difference but I did the 700w 300e build vs rouga in a china mirror. He seemed to be knowing I was skipping 700g and he did a bit of a colonial semi. Killed my tp and a village and was up a around the same time and had map control. Feels bad man.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by momuuu »

Btw, I think a crucial part that is missing is that it's generally better to not put any villagers on the wonder while aging. You have no reason to go to age 2 quickly, as 700w won't actually accelerate your build order (unlike the 700g in the normal BO), so its better to not waste villager seconds on aging faster. Something along these lines should probably be included in the build order I think, as it's quite essential in my eyes.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by deleted_user »

Jerom wrote:Btw, I think a crucial part that is missing is that it's generally better to not put any villagers on the wonder while aging. You have no reason to go to age 2 quickly, as 700w won't actually accelerate your build order (unlike the 700g in the normal BO), so its better to not waste villager seconds on aging faster. Something along these lines should probably be included in the build order I think, as it's quite essential in my eyes.

Third bullet point bud
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by momuuu »

deleted_user wrote:
Jerom wrote:Btw, I think a crucial part that is missing is that it's generally better to not put any villagers on the wonder while aging. You have no reason to go to age 2 quickly, as 700w won't actually accelerate your build order (unlike the 700g in the normal BO), so its better to not waste villager seconds on aging faster. Something along these lines should probably be included in the build order I think, as it's quite essential in my eyes.

Third bullet point bud

oh oops, but for clarity's sake it should at least briefly be mentioned in the actual build order. Just a minor heads up then.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by Mitoe »

Thanks Jerom, fixed.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by deleted_user »

@Mitoe any idea how to respond to a mirror semi ff with this? Proper scouting?
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by Mitoe »

Scouting would help. I've never really played against that in a mirror but I'd imagine you could send 1-2 military shipments and with disciples and MM you should be ok. I wouldn't worry too much about losing the TP though, that doesn't matter very much: losing a village is huge though.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by princeofkabul »

Do you prefer this against india cons rush? or skirm age up with normal play.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by fei123456 »

Discussion:
1. I think 2 village is better than 1 village+1tp
An extra vill will boost your eco significantly (you really need more res in this bo); and you already saved a shipment
2. It's not so wise to do this build if there're not good treasures on the map
You'll likely reach age 2 at 5:30, and still far away from 1200f1000g. Then, any early pressure, even it's only 5 hussar/10 xbow, can totally deny your age up.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by fei123456 »

umeu wrote:It's a good build on livestock maps. Otherwise i'd say its probably too slow in most mus where china doesnt already wins with std build anyway.

I've also tried using 300export but ive come to the conclusion that its not worth it if you want to play fortress (with perhaps the exception of playing vs germany). Its a great card if you semi ff and plan to stay colonial a bit longer. And it can be a good card if you go for a greedy fi (you go german and get trickles). I've found that the value of the 6 musk is usually not as great as the value of like 10 skirms you might have shipped otherwise, but most importantly, it delays your next six musk by 30-45 sec. So i'm of the opinion now that its not a good card for fortress play. I would rather even ssnd 1000c instead and get mercs.

i think the build where you skip 700w, but get a 2nd village in transition (this only works if you had a tp start) and then send 2 or even 3 unit shipments in age2 is actually a really solid build. However, i usually don't skip 700w, i think you should have enough xp to just skip 700c. it's possible to skip 700w though, but im not sure it its worth it. i'm also not sure how well it works if you go for that delayed age up to colonial.

1. 2v (and a tp)-700g-700w-300e-fortress shipment is great.
Use 300e for french ally 500w 500g then go brit ally.
500w=all market upgrades. 500e=manchu/iron troop.
2. This kind of FF is quite useful against early rush civs (aztec india etc).
You can't go naked ff in these MUs, but playing colo is not wise either.
Sending 8ckn 9pike (or steppe) and FF is more flexible: if he doesnt push hard, just send 300e for 500w500g after 8ckn.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by momuuu »

princeofkabul wrote:Do you prefer this against india cons rush? or skirm age up with normal play.

I feel like semi FF would be much better even personally. Whats your opinion on that?
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by Mitoe »

@princeofkabul I'm not sure, I would have to practice more against the cons rush, but I think the standard build might be better vs that. That or consulate in transition with 8 bow 300 export for 6 musk and age with skirms and send intervention might be ok.

@fei123456 2 village start is good too, but I don't think it's necessarily better than village + TP. Yes, you get more resources early which will get you to the fortress age 10 seconds faster or something, but you get more resources in Fortress if you have an early TP.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by IntrepidExplorer »

Is it really worth sending N. Refugees first if you're getting a TP? 2 vill shipment feels just awkward. Maybe a trickle or trade empire instead?
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by Mitoe »

The alternatives are just worse than 2v, unfortunately.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by princeofkabul »

Jerom wrote:
princeofkabul wrote:Do you prefer this against india cons rush? or skirm age up with normal play.

I feel like semi FF would be much better even personally. Whats your opinion on that?


I kinda feel chinese colonial units are too weak vs brit allied sepoys, and the awkward fact that you'll get units out with chukos which aren't necessarily needed if you take eles down quickly with tc fire and melee mm pop. but yeah like mitoe said 6 musks along with 8 chukos might be the way to play it out if you're opting to go for semi. But even that feels to be underwhelming force against the sepoy redcoat timing, you might be able to play some time with those and mms + explorer and hopefully save your villages for being sieged down.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by deleted_user0 »

princeofkabul wrote:Do you prefer this against india cons rush? or skirm age up with normal play.


300xport 8 bows works good vs cons rush. The age up with 8 skir and just push out. China should win every time. Walling a liitle might be useful.

Although i wouldnt go for the delayed age up to colo

@Mitoe
Ye, 25 export should take about 30 sec. Maybe a liitle more at that point. Unless you put tower on trickle. But its more that 6 cons musk is a great age2 shipment, but an underwhelming age3 shipment. So unless you use it to hold some age2 or early age3 timing. I dont think its useful. I do agree it can be good vs agressive play. Where you hide consulate. Send 300x and have 6 musk pop with the summerpalace and what not to hold a timing.

As for using it to go fre cons and treat it as a 1000 res shipment, ive never really tried. Seems ok on paper but im not sure honestly. It means -50 export. So redcoats delayed by a minute or more, so just sending 1000c or 1000w might be better. But its an interesting idea.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by yurashic »

It is a good build, but in many situations it is a bit slow. If your opponent sees you aging up at 5.30 he will put some pressure on you.
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Re: China no-700c FF

Post by fei123456 »

A very fast academy ff may counter consulate rush

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